Our Conversation with Trisha MacLeod

This month we are speaking with Trisha MacLeod, the Commanding Officer at 2 Field Ambulance in Petawawa and Champion for the Petawawa Defence Visible Minority Awareness Group. 

Trisha is a lifelong learner whose current pursuits are centred around understanding, acknowledging and deconstructing systemic racism within healthcare settings and CAF overall. 

Driven to serve, she has over 20 years of military service.  She has experience building partner capacities among domestic and international partners, 

She is enjoying her current military assignment - which she sees as an opportunity to expand her perspectives and worldview.

This is a timely discussion as February is Black History Month, but learning and discussion need to happen year round

With that in mind, Trish has provided us with a list of recommended readings and resources for anyone who wants increase their understanding of these issues.

Read:

·      So you want to talk about race - Ijeoma Oluo 

·      Inclusion on Purpose, Ruchika Tulshyan 

·      White Fragility, Robin DiAngelo 

Support:

A Different Booklist is a Canadian, independent, multicultural bookstore specializing in the African Caribbean Diaspora from the Global South  - https://www.adifferentbooklist.com

Watch / Listen:

How the US medical community fails Black mothers – TED Talk https://www.ted.com/talks/honourable_ahmed_hussen_a_tale_of_two_canadas_my_story_of_generosity_and_systemic_racism 

A list of podcasts compiled by Harvard University on the topic of anti-racism for allies:

 https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/antiracismresources/allies/podcasts  

About Race w/ Reni Eddo-Lodge https://www.aboutracepodcast.com/ 

 
We want to hear from you!

Is there a guest that you would like us interview – or a topic that you would like us to talk about?  If so, please let us know.

 We would love to hear your suggestions and feedback. You can reach us at Podcast.Feedback@PetawawaMFRC.com or by contacting the Petawawa Military Family Resource Centre.

Transcript

Julie [Intro]: 

Welcome to Military Family Life, the podcast for Canadian military family members, by military family members. Do you ever wish you had a guidebook or mentor to help you with some of the challenges you're facing as part of a military family. Each episode we're going to bring you the stories of people who have been there. They're going to share the lessons that they've learned along the way to help you live your best Military Family Life. 

Julie [00:00:28]: 

Hi, and welcome to Military Family Life. My name is Julie Hollinger, our guest this month is Trisha MacLeod, the commanding officer at 2 field ambulance in Petawawa. And she's also the champion for the Petawawa Defense Visible Minority Awareness Group. She's a lifelong learner whose current pursuits are centered around understanding, acknowledging, and deconstructing systemic racism that happens within the healthcare setting, and then the CAF overall. Driven to serve, she has over 20 years of military experience, and she has experienced building partner capacities among domestic and international partners. She enjoys her current military assignment because it gives her the opportunity to expand her perspectives and her worldview.  

This discussion is a timely one because February is Black History Month, but we do want to acknowledge that the discussions and the learning around this topic need to happen year-round, not just during the month of February. With that in mind, we did ask Trisha for a list of resources and books that might be of interest to anybody who wants to further their knowledge of this topic. Those are available in the show notes. We hope you enjoy the conversation that Claudia Beswick and I had with Trisha MacLeod. 

Julie: 

So, Trish, thank you for joining us on the podcast is great to talk to you. We always start these conversations by letting our guests introduce themselves. Talk about who you are, you know where you're from, and what is your relationship to the military?  

Trisha:  

My name is Trish. I am a Health Services Operations Officer or health services - HSO that works with the health services within the Canadian Armed Forces. I have a background in nursing, I first joined the military as a nursing officer way in the - way back and then I progressed to my current profession as a health services officer. I basically look after the health system that we provide in the Canadian Armed Forces, so both primary care clinics that most folks appreciate and understand but I also plan and coordinate the health service support for - in this particular position the Canadian Army here, 2 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group. So, the prehospital combat care here and I have been involved in medical planning outside of the army both in a joint environment for all of the overseas operations, that kind of thing. 

Well, that kind of answer is my connection to the military, but I grew up in a military family too. So, I grew up as the daughter of a senior NCO in the Canadian - the Royal Canadian Air Force. And I say that with a big smile on my face because there's nothing he wished more for me than to join the military as an Air Force officer. But I unfortunately get extremely - extremely motion sick. So, I joined the Army instead. 

Julie [00:02:50]:  

My husband's in the same boat. His father and stepfather are both Air Force and he joined the army so, yeah.  

Trisha:  

Yeah, so it was - I really, I didn't realize that as a child growing up, but I grew an affinity for movement. I become restless when I've been in a place for too - too long. And I one of the things that really appealed to me in the Canadian Armed Forces, joining it myself was the ability to essentially metamorphosis and change jobs. All the while staying in the same profession. And I've had the pleasure of serving in a bunch of different places all across Canada and internationally. So.  

Julie: 

Did you join the army right out of high school, or did you sort of you know, think about what you want to do? Did you always know that this was the next step for you?  

Trisha:  

Oh, no, no, no. So, I went through high school very much resisting my father's advice. I actually went to university on my own for three years studying psychology. I ran out of money, and I needed a job. 

So, I started to look into the regular officer training programs and that's when I joined. And I specifically chose a vocation that didn't require me to transfer to the Royal Military College. 

So that's how we got into nursing, truth be told. I walked across the campus to the nursing faculty, and they actually had three open spots. So, me and a couple others who were in other education streams came over and that's the history behind that. I actually believed nursing to be a steppingstone to something else, but I practiced bedside nursing from 2002 straight through to 2015. And I concurrently applied to the military for sponsorship through school and once I was in the military I kind of – I kind of really enjoyed it.  

So, I didn't look back on that, but I definitely didn't think I'd stay on like clinical nursing for as long as I did.  

Julie: 

So, when you mean bedside nurse nursing, you mean like a nurse in the mil- you've always worked in sort of in the context of the military? 

Trisha [00:04:45]:  

Yeah, but when I initially began nursing - we don't have military hospitals anymore. They closed in the late - late 90s/early 2000s. So, most of our clinicians who are hospital-based clinicians, so your surgeons, your nurses, your perioperative nurses, all those different specialties perioperative techs, that kind of stuff typically do rotations through civilian hospitals.  

So, I was - from 2002 until 15, I worked in Alberta Health Services, and also in New Brunswick, at the Dr. Everett trauma - Dr. Everett Chalmers Hospital, basically practicing nursing on a military placement or working on the side, moonlighting.  

Claudia: 

Trish, I got the first chance that I met you was at the CIMVHR conference in Halifax. And for those that don't know, it's just a conference where there's a lot of research that happens about CAF members and families and extended other occupations as well. But I had the pleasure of attending a workshop that Trish was speaking at, and it came very clear in the beginning that you're so passionate about your beliefs on culture change and I believe that's what was the - the workshop was on cultural change. 

Trisha:  

Yeah.  

Claudia: 

Did that start early in your career? Or can you remember what that moment was where you just became such a huge advocate to speak for people that couldn't necessarily speak easily for themselves?  

Trisha [00:06:20]:  

I like the way that you shaped that question.  

Yes, I remember my defining moment where I became very, very aware of members - marginalized members within the within the health community, and how difficult it was for them to overcome systemic racism and barriers to specifically receiving health care.  

So, first real awareness became when I was - on concrete awareness became when I was the commanding officer in Toronto. Of the clinics there, 32 CF Health Services Center when I was brand new into the job. This was 2019, before COVID, before the murder of George Floyd, before Joyce Echaquan’s terrible death in Quebec and many others and Dr. Althea Monteiro actually asked for an office call.  

So, I sat down with her, and she had to break the news to me that she had started to see a disturbing trend of her clientele and that was she was providing health service support to the racialized community members who had experienced racialized trauma, as a result of their service in the Canadian Armed Forces. 

So, this was a really shocking information to me. However, I knew immediately that this was way bigger than me. This was - this was systemic, but I needed to get smart in that space. And I couldn't help but think about cases and studies.  

Again, I had practiced clinical nursing out in Alberta. Quite a large indigenous population that's in the spaces where I - where I worked there and I was just thinking and reflecting on some of the news stories, some of the terrible things that had happened. You know, indigenous people being under – under surveyed and reported and dying in emergency departments; dying outside on the streets, unable to access care, so I connected those experiences pretty quickly, but also knew that I needed to learn. So, I pivoted all of my postgraduate research that I was currently working on, towards this effort, so I could be an advocate.  

So, within a healthcare construct, I provide care to members on a day-to-day basis, I have to develop programs and services to respond to the current needs of our members. So, I knew - I knew that we needed to be able to provide culturally sensitive care or informed care. When you look at the health services providers, we don't always necessarily reflect that diversity that is needed.  

So those are some barriers that we had begun - we became aware of, but I also have a role with advocacy. So, in that we're an occupational health group, we advise chains of command and leadership about trends, health trends of concern and things that they need to be aware of. And so, this is my area of focus that I knew I was going to have to ring the bell with these commanding officers and their Sergeants, Majors about what it is that we were we were noticing and what it is that they could do about it. 

I cannot really underscore how intimidating this was to be a, you know, cisgendered woman - so somebody who identifies with my biological birth - a heterosexual, all my privilege as a commanding officer, you know what - what is it that I had to offer in this space?  

So that's why we really focused coming in to become really smart in this space – or not really - curious is - curious and humble is the thing that that we focused on because no one - no one is ever going to become a subject matter expert with respect to what it is that the racialized community experiences on a day-to-day basis in overcoming the barriers to come and receive care. 

So, my first experience in engaging with the chain of command didn't go very well. So, I engaged with the Toronto chain - chains of command they received the briefing I - you know, myself, my sergeant major, my base surgeon and Dr. Monteiro sat down with them. And we walked them through sort of a patient tracer. What it is that the racialized community typically experiences and how it is that they end up being clients at our door, and I walked away from all of those engagements feeling extraordinarily let down. There was no after, there was no après discussion or questions or follow up even.  

When I'm working in the advocacy space, when we're talking about matters of health concern. I'm not providing names and faces. So, it's very abstract to this COs and Sergeants Majors because I couldn't tell you if someone were to come to me and say we have an issue in the area of operations concerning Toronto which is 450,000 square kilometers. And I can tell you, the CO’s and RSM were probably like, “Well, that's someone else's unit, not my unit.” 

Right? So how was I going to make this stick? And the other piece that was really concerning to me was the community itself. So, in this evolution, of course, the murder of George Floyd happened; the pandemic began, and the uprising of the Black Lives Matter movement happened, and I was working in Denison Armoury, where it is, it is incredibly diverse - It is incredibly represented by black members. And you can hear a pin drop in the hallways. Nobody had checked in on this group.  

And so, I reached out to on of - one of my really close friends in the community, and I went to check in with them and I'm like, “How are you doing?” 

And their response to me was so typical, you know, “I'm good, I'm fine” 

And I was like, “No, like- you know, things are happening in this community, or not happening in this community.” 

And that was like, for the first time ever, his eyes told me everything. No one had ever acknowledged his identity before. And we had a little moment, just a quiet moment, words weren’t exchanged, and I just knew that more needed to happen.  

So, we have evolved, and I pulled in as many allies as I could in this space where we work in - in healthcare. Typically, members don't just come to health care when - when they've experienced racialized trauma, so they'll – they’ll end up in the conflict solution services, so formerly the SCCM. They'll end up with their Chaplains, they’ll end up going to PSP for some of the programs that they - they provide. And I wanted this group of folks to come together, including my health care team to start processing some of these things. 

And so organically, we developed a virtual workshop or a virtual professional development group first, where we would start by looking at problem-based learning scenario, some academic literature, some videos, that kind of stuff, and working through this problem set and then I would share my disappointment with being unable to really - I found – to breakthrough to chaind of command about what was being experienced in the community. And we decided that we wanted to do something.  

So, we developed our workshop. When I say we, I say - I very much really sponsored the development of the workshop by providing as a commanding officer time, space, money, resources, and advocacy. But truth be told, there's a group of very powerful individuals, primarily based out of Toronto and London, who developed a two-day curriculum and developed - and delivered specifically to the Health Care Group, a few anti-racist workshops. And then we just recently provided a face to face - first of its kind workshop here in Petawawa, in January. 

So, from ‘19 -2019 to 2023, this has been the space - this has been the work. There's been lots of things in the interim. We've done some book clubs, we've done some panel discussions virtually, and we're just continuing to do the work - to move the yardsticks forward on this very important project.  

Claudia [00:13:40]:  

Your tenacity to impact change and being humble at the same time is really inspiring and I caught that the first time I heard your story, and I believe I said to you in Halifax because we had a little roundtable session, and I was so sad when our time was up so short because we had some really good conversations going. I asked you what can we do to support you on this initiative? We as in the MFRC. How can we help get that message - do what we can you know, for members, for families, for community? What is it that you would like to see as the next steps? 

And I know that you're a champion for a lot of - a lot of causes and you're - you're - you're very active on that and we think it's great and we just want to be able to also share the message, you know, and support as best we can. What would you like to see?  

Trisha: 

That's a really good question too. So, I think just reflecting on the group that we have involved so far as stakeholders in this working group space, admittedly the PMFRC or any of the MFRC’s - mind you we did have the Toronto MFRC involved and we didn't include you in this workshop. So that is retrospectively something we should plan for in the future is including you in iterations in the future because honestly, we - We employ in the Canadian Armed Forces humans, you know? And humans are surrounded by their people, their families, including families is super important for a lot of reasons. And I'll use the person/partner care pieces.  

You know, the care team that a person or a patient engages with health care community with we want to include their community providing support mechanisms for that same thing. So enabling families to be part of - Families and friends I would offer I'm not sure if that PMRC uses that terminology as well because I don't personally like to divide what some folks enjoy the term family, some folks enjoy the term friend that really depends on their - where they're situated with those words, but inviting them to the table to help us build ourselves up and bring ourselves together.  

So really, that's a retrospective of what it is that we can do better. Myself, I can do better with the local resources and inviting places like the PMFRC into - into this space. And I guess what that could look like or what - what the information or the dialogue that we're always looking to gain from stakeholders is their lived experiences and their perspectives with respect to where it is that this work needs to go.  

I am not the one who sets priorities. I'm not the one who chooses what it is that we're going to talk about or where it is that the programs are going to go because I am not the one who is living in this life being oppressed or undervalued or marginalized. So being able to support voices, from particularly the racialized community is - is where I'm at.  

So, keeping - keeping me and keeping our team honest with respect to that, and helping us fulfill our perspective taking is really what the PMFRC could help us do. To support the needs of the community.  

Julie [00:16:45]:  

Do you find it difficult or is it getting easier? I think this work can only be done when you hear from people and their lived experiences. Were - Was there additionally some reticence to share this information - to share these stories? It takes a lot for someone to trust you to tell these stories.  

Trisha:  

Oh yeah. And it's very traumatizing as well. So, I love the Brene Brown quote. She reminds us that “Be careful who you share your story with to ensure that they have earned the right to hear that story.” 

Claudia: 

Oh, I love that. 

Trisha: 

Yeah, you're absolutely right. This is - We're very, very cautious about carrying water. So, who is it that we are asking to do the work and who is it that we are asking to share their lived experiences? And have we created a psychologically safe space for those things to occur?  

So sometimes, rather than hearing a person's personal lived experience, we interrogate something like an article or a book instead. So recently, I'll use an example we did a - For my unit, we did a professional development session for National Day of Truth and Reconciliation. We provided a very short number of resources for folks to interact with; videos, Ted Talks and a couple of short articles. And then we led a few different discussions and then we all came together as a group. And at the end of the group, someone made a suggestion that we bring in a member from the community who had had experiences with the residential school system so we can learn more.  

And of course, I know that's a lovely idea. But there are many resources out there that don't require us to hear from someone who has been traumatized by the residential school system. So instead, we could read a book. So, in fact, we're reading Jody Wilson-Raybould’s book at our upcoming roundtable. And I think you could probably reflect and that's just - that's just by privilege, is we don't really recognize that we want to have these things given to us. And we've - because we've - we've not had those lived experiences we don't recognize in the moment until we really become conscious of what it is that we've asked somebody to do. 

You know, recognizing my role, I'll tell you right now in this space, there's a – If you could take a top 10 list of things that you can do wrong as far as being a white person working in anti racist spaces. I have done them all. No one's expecting perfection or expecting progress. So, being able to recognize - admit when we've made mistakes, correct for those mistakes, and move forward. So, I'm always really cautious when we're asking members of the racialized community to share their lived experiences. Ideally, that comes organically. And then there's a space of checking in as well. 

Claudia [00:19:40]: 

I just want circle back to the comment about family and just to clarify that, for us as the MFRC, family is whoever is significant to that member. So, it could be anybody in their circle of care or their extended network of care because we also recognize that, you know, family is very - looks very different to different people. So - 

Trisha: 

That's beautiful. 

Claudia: 

It's just really who was significant to that - to that member or that family.  

Julie: 

I'm a true believer that everything in your life is sort of a step to where you eventually supposed to go for that initial person, that doctor to have you in their office and have that conversation. She saw something in you that you'd be willing. How do you think that your career in the military kind of sets you up to do this type of work? 

Trisha: 

I would say my background as a nursing officer, working heavily in the community that I did, particularly in Alberta, particularly at the Royal Alex and being very cognizant as a younger nurse that I saw a few trends.  

I remember seeing when I worked in maternity and delivery, young women being - having their pain under assessed by clinicians and knowing from my recent nursing studies that - that was an internal bias that many of the nurses and clinicians would apply. So, they would, you know, unfortunately, the young pregnant teens would not necessarily get the same pain control that other aged women would be getting. And I would see similar - similar assessments for indigenous populations in particular, the assumption of substance use, the assumption of not looking after themselves. And also, there were no really good - initially programs integrated into the hospital for spirituality for non-Christian practicing folks. 

I can say with authority, though, near the end of my service that we did have indigenous practitioners that were part of the hospital community that would be able to be available to help with smudging ceremonies, that would be able to support family members and nations and communities to do and celebrate and conduct rituals. And I always was left in awe about the barriers that were in place. So, there would always be you know, for example, smudging ceremonies. You know, forms that would need to be filled out, maintenance would need to be involved so that fire alarms didn't go off rather than planning for. So as an example, you know, why don't we just assume everyone needs to have these things and not require a form and support these things. 

So that's kind of where it began and then obviously the connecting moment when - when I - when I was sitting with Dr. Monteiro was just a crystallized moment where a theme in my entire practice or career had always been there as far as advocacy for social change. I mean, all nurses have a role in advocacy, right? We're the ones who spend all this time with our patients. And I guess over the course of my career, I had always seen particular themes. So being able to connect those things. I will say I'm pretty conscious about what it is that I - like, I only have so much bandwidth myself. As far as advocacy goes. And trust me there is deep, deep pockets of advocacy that require work. And I do feel that anti-racism in particular – the racism that indigenous and black people experience in the healthcare community is something that has found me and I'm very conscious of trying to center myself in that space. 

I don't mind doing consultation work with other groups, but I'm very conscious that I typically will fulfill the role as an attendee - as a voice but I try not to take on too many other products. 

Julie: 

Did you find that people were coming back to you and wanting to talk to you more about this? After everything that happened with COVID and all the numbers that came out there was so much data showing that people of color in certain neighborhoods and racialized communities were being impacted by COVID more heavily. Was there more of an attention of “Okay, it is we have to come back to this work.” 

And did you get a little bit more traction once these things started to happen? 

Trisha: 

Definitely interest and I like to keep a couple of personal key performance indicators that I think about and one of them is attendance. So how many folks are attending meetings/professional development sessions that we're running, so I did a lot of book clubs, virtually - not just for my unit, but outside the unit, and there was a lot of uptake an interest in these things.  

So that that was really, really. really reinforcing and the other piece so versus attendance of a second piece is consultancy. So I look to those things and the further away the consultancy comes from - from where I am like, you know, your six - seven degrees of separation. I kind of - it's fuel to the fire that the message is getting out. Because it's one thing to sit and be an advocate in your local areas. It’s now a whole other thing when you're - when you can see how far out the ripples are making.  

So initially when I was working in Toronto, I was getting a lot of consultancies from 8 Wing Trenton as an example who are doing a lot of really great work in this space as well. But now, I'm very pleased to tell you that I get consultants - questions I should say about where - where one starts or you know, a program or a service or an issue that has arisen from all over the country. Mostly from the – my Canadian Armed Forces counterparts. And that's just really, really reassuring that the work is important.  

Claudia [00:25:40]: 

So, do you feel that the yardstick is moving forward with the – in the Canadian Armed Forces and how they're recognizing and acknowledging these situations and trying to also put a voice to it, address some of those situations?  

Trisha: 

I definitely feel - So the CDS and the MND have acknowledged the presence of systemic racism within -within the Canadian Armed Forces. So that is not up for debate. I definitely feel as though there is momentum. And there's interest - specifically at the leadership level wanting to know more and what it is that they can do about it. But I do think that - like when we use the terms like systemic racism, white privilege, all of these things are still very big. They're still very polarizing. And we have a bit of work to do to recognize and move past, for lack of better terms white privilege.  

So, we need to acknowledge - In order to say goodbye, we need to say hello, and we need to really be willing to personally - individually, take on the work to look at ourselves; look in the mirror; look at what it is that we have had the privilege of experiencing as individuals and then collectively imagine what that experience looks like for the collective and then for the marginalized groups. And then we can start to work toward - in partnership with all those groups. 

So, I think the - what I would say the good news is, is that dialogue is starting to happen. The dialogue isn't action. Dialogue isn’t - And I mean, we know this by the numbers, we aren't retaining members from racialized community. We certainly might be recruiting, but we're not retaining we are looking to get more disaggregated data. And I’m excited that we're doing finally, but I'm also conscious because how honest are we going to expect the racialized communities to be when we haven’t proven to them that we’ve earned – That we’ve earned the right to hear their story. 

So, yeah -Yeah. Still a lot of work to do. 

Claudia: 

There is but you know, what you said really resonated with me that we don't expect-  

Trisha:  

Right 

Claudia:  

To be perfect, but we expect there to be progress and I think that's pretty much a mantra that's going to be in my head. Because even for myself, knowledge is power and learning as much as we can because, you know, like you it's - it's the white privilege and we don't know what we don't know. So, we need to learn, and I think even learning is - is a progress and what ever we can do from either the PMFRC or if COVID had taught us anything; We're doing a lot virtually, regionally and nationally. So, we're more than happy to collaborate and see how we can continue the message and all the - the good work that you're doing.  

You even shared with me that the systems that you put in place in Toronto are still there, even long since you not being there. So, I think that speaks volumes. You know, you may be a voice, but you've made impact. And I think that's as important, and you know, you can still be humble but you're leaving your mark. And I think that needs to - needs to be said as well.  

Julie [00:28:55]: 

Would you be willing to – We have show notes that we put up with the episodes - to give us like maybe four or five suggestions of books that if people wanted to learn more about this, these are really good resources they could start with?  

Trisha:  

Yes.  

Julie:  

I think so often people want to learn more but they don't know where to start and they may get bogged down and you know, what's a - What's a sound resource, where can we go from? So, maybe we can put those in the show notes and if people want to hear more at least that's something we can sort of start with an offer people to - to have that conversation. 

Trisha: 

Yeah, for sure. Getting started is honestly the hardest - the hardest part and that was definitely where I made my – A lot of my first errors. I'm making errors all the time, but I - you know, as soon - as soon as I find them, I become better. So, when I - when I was in this space, too, so it's a really great idea. I reached out to the racialized community and asked them like, “where do I begin and what books would you recommend?” 

And one of my colleagues from my degree, he's like, “yeah, so this is an example of white privilege.” 

He was really, really beautiful at coaching me though and he made - didn't make me feel stupid or dumb. He made me feel like a human and one that can do better, but one that was - he still recognized where my intent was coming from. He gave me a really great steer so that's a good idea.  

Julie: 

There has to be days when you are feeling like you're kind of pushing a rock uphill and there has to have been times and you're like, “Okay, why am I doing this? Is this you know, is this something I want to continue with?” 

How do you keep going with this?  

Trisha: 

That’s the truth-  

Julie: 

I think also because you know, as a nurse, you’re somebody who's in a caring profession, right so like, you know it – this - there's also the experience of you're always sort of holding up - you're seeing people at - not really at the best times of their lives often. So, you're sort of witnessing a lot of tough things. How do you look after yourself, you can keep doing the work?  

Trisha:  

So, I'm going to channel some of the folks who I have the privilege of working with here in Petawawa, and I center on the racialized community themselves, the patients with which they experienced every day, and the harm that they have to choose to either address or let go in their day to day. So, when I think about my rock, I often think of theirs and that's one of the things that drives me.  

The second thing - thing that drives me is the community that we have built in this group of Anti-racist champions. We have - we have one another, and generally speaking whenever we have - whether it's an informal meeting or workshop, the connections that we experience are super deep. To me, they remind me a lot of what as - like what you experienced when you're on a deployment. And these are - these are people from all over. And there's really one word that comes to mind and that is a deep, profound love that we have for the work that we're doing and the respect that we have for one another.  

So, whenever I'm struggling with the rock, I think about that experience and normally, after having conducted a meeting, or a workshop or even a connection with somebody else, your just heart grows two times bigger and it - it adds that fire in your belly to continue with the work.  

And I'd say the last thing that I center on is I'm not trying to boil the ocean all at once. I'm going to do it one glass at a time. I don't know who – 

Julie: 

But you're going to do it.  

Trisha: 

But we're going do it - but we're going to do it and knowing that - knowing that the community feels super validated, is being heard, I think of those as the - As the small wins that I’ll focus on from day to day. 

Julie [00:32:45]: 

I think there's a real privilege in being a safe place. So, when someone tells you their story, it's a privilege to have been selected; that they trust you enough to tell you their story.  

Trisha: 

Yes, absolutely. 

Claudia: 

So, just a question and it just came to me, and kind of backtracking a bit where you say that targeting marginalized population into the CAF is not necessarily the issue. It's the retention piece. Do you think that their personal situations are an added layer of challenges and barriers? On top of the normal, unique military challenges? Right, relocation? Ongoing deployments?  

Trisha:  

Yeah,  

Claudia:  

You know, kind of like your bucket is semi-full, and then when you add all this other stuff it just adds another layer. Do you think that's a part of the retention piece?  

Trisha:  

Yeah. So right now, what the - what our approach is in the CAF - I don't actually know that we have a strategy beyond this is - is to recruit from diverse population groups. And I think it's awesome. I think it's wonderful and it's needed. But the experiences these members get when they get into the military is we're not - we're not planned for.  

So as an example, when you're not from the Christian faith, and you come to a unit that doesn't have a prayer room. You recognize that you weren't planned for, that there is something you need to request. Similarly, when you have – If you eat Halal, you have to fill out a form and have it signed by your commanding officer, rather than having that just be part of your In-Clearance. “What are your food preferences?”  

So, those are - those are more barriers that are - that are loaded on the community.  

The other thing that I think about is the military - I believe the community or the culture has changed a little bit with respect to - You know, when I first joined the military, we did a lot of things sort of 24/7, you know, there was an expectation of, you know, you would do a lot of social things together in the evenings. And I think there's been an evolution where, you know, newer generations are happy to be part of this team from Monday to Friday during business hours or whenever we need to go to the field on high operational tempo, into the evenings/weekends, that kind of thing, but when they're not on duty, they want to just connect with their own community and their own families.  

And many of those communities and families don't look like mine. They don't practice like mine. And there are many barriers to - you know, it's expected that you'll have children as an example. But what about if you have parents that you care for in a non-western culture? You know, how is it that we can look at relocating those families together to be in community? And it is, those are barriers. They all need to be requested for, rather than planned for.  

So, I think we need to think about that those pieces and then also give some consideration of the isolation that some of these communities would face. If we're recruiting from a diverse populations in you know, Toronto, Edmonton, Vancouver, Montreal, but then asking those population groups to go to places like Cold Lake, Bagotville, et cetera. Petawawa even, like, where are you going to get your haircut? If you're - if you're a black woman or a black man here, who is going to understand the needs that you have? And that is something we can plan for.  

Like, we can actually look to bring in hairdressers who specialize in texturized hair. They perhaps don't work here full time, but maybe we bring them down once every however often the need would be. And maybe that comes at a loss or cost that you know what it helps somebody who has black hair texture, it means that we planned for you, and we want you to be here.  

It’s small things, but same with prayer rooms. We've changed the way that we do - We do our annual readiness verifications, and we include food preferences, so that we can plan for all of our members, not just some of our members. So, these are very small things.  

Julie [00:36:50]:  

Even from a relocation perspective if you are somebody who is very involved in a faith community, and say, in Toronto, and you're moving to a place like Petawawa, where there's not a temple, there's not a mosque. That’s a big adjustment, and there's like a big loss in your life.  

Trisha:  

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. 

Claudia: 

And I think there's a lesson here, even for us as an MFRC. You know, when we're working on our strategic planning, which is coming up in the next fiscal year, to give some thought to how we can better support the families in those dynamics, right? Because it's not necessarily something we have a lot - a lot of knowledge of, and what can we put in place to support - better support those families.  

Julie:  

So, Claudia and I, before a guest comes on, do a little bit of research, and we have kind of been fangirling Trisha beforehand. So, you - you are very, very humble, and you talk about all the work that's being done by all the people.  

In 2021, you were awarded the Liz Hoffman award. Did that surprise you for the work that you've done? What were you surprised, humbled? Did that take you back when – when - when that was announced to you, or did someone talk to you about that?  

Trisha:  

Yeah, that was - that was some of the work that I had done in Toronto, raising awareness around anti-racism. And it was extraordinarily humbling to be nominated by a dear friend. He was the acting G1, Lieutenant John Kim. Big shout out to him. Thank you for that.  

Yeah, it's always I mean, it was - it was definitely a surprise. And of course, I'm not sure if you've looked at the group of folks who also received awards in that tranche like, I was standing amongst giants. And, yeah.  

Claudia:  

One of our - one of our executive directors was awarded to so yeah, from Halifax. Shelley.  

Trisha:  

Oh, Shelley, oh! 

Julie: 

I'm pretty sure that everybody that was there was looking at all the other recipients and saying, “Why am I here with these people?” 

You know, I think just the work that you do, right, like, you know, “how do I measure up to these people?” 

I think everyone looks everybody else in the same kind of way.  

Trisha:  

Yeah, so it's definitely like it's not something that - I don't think many people do very good with - with acknowledgement and validation. It's kind of uncomfortable, especially as a woman; especially being - I typically think of myself as a conduit, a supporter, a connector in this space. I acknowledge I've been in the position of a commanding officer and I'm trying to use that platform. People answer your calls, when you're - when you're a CEO, and you have some, you know, resources, space, whether it's funding you can dedicate towards these things. 

So, I don't know that it makes me feel any special - any more special than anyone else. But it does feel as though, back to your question about progress - This acknowledgment that there is work being done to move things forward and the other piece that I think it is super important to recognize in this space, is we don't need any further direction from the strategic level. We don't need the CTTC to tell us, you know, “these are the steps that you need to take.” 

What we need to do at our level is to start listening and learning and then acting and not expecting perfection. And just being able to iterate in those spaces, take the feedback as it comes and move forward. 

Julie [00:40:05]: 

Just sideways a little bit while we were doing the research and fangirling, we also saw an amazing portrait of you that was done for a year of nursing and just wanted to- sort of ask you about that? It was during a nursing in a time of COVID. How did that - how did that affect you as a nurse and of seeing what that picture was? And sort of the role that you would have played from a military perspective? What is- has COVID changed the way you live your life, the way you do your job today versus where you would have been blissfully unaware in 2019. And I just thought blissfully unaware because we all sort of - like no one told us a pandemic was coming. How does it change the way you live your life and do your job in 2023?  

Trisha:  

Yeah, so the COVID pandemic and being selected to sit with the artist Gertrude Kearns was a very transformative time. So, if you've ever - never sat for a portrait before, it takes many sittings. I think that one was 5 five-hour sittings, roughly in the neighborhood of 25 hours. And Gertrude’s a wonderful artist, and the whole time you're there she's virtually interviewing you and having conversations about lots of things. So, we had lots of discussion in this space. And the way that the pandemic was – So, sitting with her was transformative in and of itself. It's one of the moments of my life that I will truly cherish and of course, that's been edified now in a portrait for all to see. But I’m extremely, extremely lucky to have been the nursing officer to be chosen, although I'm no longer a nursing officer, still a nurse, still registered nurse, and I still use my nursing practice in everything that I do as a commanding officer first at clinic and now at field ambulance but that's also responsible for clinic. 

And I would say the biggest piece for - for management and leadership within a healthcare setting what the pandemic has done, is recognizing we did not hit the pandemic as a Canadian Forces Health Services Group and the healthiest state. We were already fairly understaffed, fairly stretched, and in some pockets burnt out. So, the COVID pandemic asked us to do more with less and it became very apparent. We were going to have to ask ourselves, what is it that we are doing that we shouldn't be or we can stop and what is it that we're not doing that we should be?  

So, there were some innovative, introspective, risky, risk tolerance assessments that were made to allow like, first and foremost your center of gravity in a health delivery model will always be the folks that work with you. So how is it that we were going to retain folks who you know, we're now - you know, schools were closing as an example, that was probably the biggest impact was on our parents. But then second to them, was the impact on our families of one. People who are dislocated from - from their next of kin, right?  

If you're living in Toronto, but your family lives in time Vancouver, all the airports are closed. I'll use an - myself as an example. I was a commanding officer in Toronto. My parents lived in Trenton, 176 kilometers away. And my husband was in Jordan for a year. So, there was, you know, no travel to be had so thinking about how it is that we were going to connect and support one another, to be able to do meaningful work for our population at risk, but to ensure that we stay connected.  

So, we did some innovative things with respect to as an example telehealth, learning from other clinics who had worked these steps ahead of us, in particular Borden, Comox, Esquimalt. And then just being honest with - there was going to be a mountain of work that was going to need to be done later. So, advocating up to our chain of command about as an example, periodic health assessment. Still a question we have as to what's going to be happening with those and how it is that we're going to tackle them.  

But it is acknowledged - higher ups and then in my work here at 2 Field Ambulance we have a whole bunch of high readiness tasks. So, we were able to get some of those things to be paused, so we weren't having to keep you know, all of our high readiness operational kits and equipment in the highest readiness state possible because we were already doing, you know, support to the pandemic in Ontario, as well as, at the time working to high readiness. So really, I would say the biggest key takeaway is providing space and attention to the people to be able - to have them - should be able to show up to work in their - as full and committed as they can knowing full well that they're pretty distracted. Whether it was care for they're kids - being teachers or being caregivers and not just - And some of our folks are also caregivers for their parents as well.  

Julie [00:45:00]:  

It's a very different experience doing this at home versus like being deployed to another country to provide services in your home. It takes on a different kind of - different kind of bend.  

Trisha: 

Yeah  

Julie:  

Or different angle.  

Trisha:  

Yeah. For sure.  

Julie: 

If people are listening, and I think, you know, it's people want to do the work, but they don't know where to start. Where can people start other than like, beyond that reading and learning part? Are there things that we can do as community members to be more aware and welcoming? And inclusive in how we do our things?  

Trisha: 

Aside from - from reading, and, you know, education is the first step to all things. And I think being curious about, you know, recognizing where it is, you know, as a form of education, in your everyday experiences, just thinking about how it is that you interact with the world and how it might be different for others in your education.  

So, you know, how it is that you access health care; what questions are asked or what questions aren’t asked of you. What are the things that you need to think about as an example, if you're pulled over by the police? Have you given much thought to how that might be different for racialized communities? And if not, to think about why that may be.  

The other piece to think about too is, this isn't villainizing any individual or group. You know, when we talk about white privilege, this isn't about white people or in the military we often talk about, you know, white men because the military is typically made up of a bunch of white men, villainizing men. This is about just becoming more aware. And building a bridge to become more aware is the first step in building equitable workplaces, equitable communities, and finding places where everybody feels a sense of belonging and that you can ask yourself, like in different spaces where a community of - whether it's your team or your family is coming together around a particular celebration, who made the decisions around that particular celebration? And what celebration it is.  

I use an example you know; we're going to have Olympian Bear come up, right now; In the near future. Which is 2 Brigades biggest annual sporting event, and we'll probably do the opening ceremony at the hockey tournament.  

Well, why not basketball? Why not soccer? And apparently there's also going to be a video game component this year, which I'm excited about. Why? Why not there? So those are just small things that we can think about is how it is that we elevate certain things over others and just to get more curious about it. And it's not about again, not about villainizing any one group. It's about asking some of these questions about who and where -where these decisions are made and who it's important too. 

Julie [00:48:00]: 

I think that having these discussions and people being aware, it makes me personally a little bit more hopeful that future generations are going to be better, you know, it - they're going to know.  When you know better you can do better.  

Trisha:  

I'm really inspired by our newest group of - in particular the - the young med techs that are joining 2 Field Ambulance. I definitely am, I'm excited about this generation. They have a lot of opinions and they'll let you know, if you're willing to listen. If you're willing to listen and that's the issue with our - my generation is whether or not we're willing to listen to what it is their concerns, priorities, wants, wishes desires are, so we can create a future where they'll stay where they'll feel safe to stay.  

Claudia:  

Yes. 

Trisha: 

Where it's their-This is their future.  

Claudia:  

Trish, you were an inspiration to me back in October. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast. You did that without hesitation. I think it was like a second after I asked the question she just automatically said yes.  

Everything that you are doing truly makes you an inspirational leader. And definitely for me personally and inspiration to want to learn more and to also be better. I always believe in self improvement and doing what we can whether it's for my team here at the MFRC or for our CAF family. So, thank you we're going to continue this journey and I hope continue the conversation with you to see what we can do here locally in Petawawa and perhaps maybe a little bit more even regionally or nationally. So, it's pretty exciting and I really truly appreciate all that you've brought to the table and for sharing your story with us. It means a lot.  

Julie:  

Thank you.  

Trisha:  

Aw, thank you so much for having me.  

Julie:  

And that’s it for this episode of Military Family Life. Thank you so much for joining us. Remember there is a feedback link on our page. If there is a story that you would like to tell, if you know of a fabulous military family member, we would love to have them tell their story. Be sure to drop us a line and we will see you next Month. 

Claudia [Outro]: 

And that's it for this episode of Military Family Life from one military family member to another. If you have any advice that you would like to share, let us know we would love to hear from you. We may even share your experiences on future episodes. If you have family or friends who want to learn more about living their best Military Family Life, don't hesitate to let them know about our podcast. Thanks for listening. Join us again next time for more Military Family Life.