About our Guest:
Denver Hilland grew up in the GTA and was a professional level ballerina until she left for university.
She earned a Bachelor of Arts Kinesiology and Physical Education from Wilfrid Laurier University, and a Master of Arts Health Promotion from Dalhousie University.
Denver served as the Project coordinator for the Early Childhood Collaborative Research Centre at MSVU, a Health Promoter for the Health for All Family Health Team, and is now a Health Promotion Specialist for PSP Health Promotion in Petawawa.
Denver met her partner before he joined the military. He was called up to basic about five months into their relationship. They've been together for four and a half years. They were posted to Petawawa in September 2021 while Denver was six months pregnant.
Prior to this posting they had a long distance relationship as her partner completed his DP1, with working in Halifax while he was at Borden.
Contact us:
We would love to hear from you. If you are a Military Family Member that wants to share your experiences and lessons learned, email us at Podcast.Feedback@PetawawaMFRC.com
About our Guest:
Denver Hilland grew up in the GTA and was a professional level ballerina until she left for university.
She earned a Bachelor of Arts Kinesiology and Physical Education from Wilfrid Laurier University, and a Master of Arts Health Promotion from Dalhousie University.
Denver served as the Project coordinator for the Early Childhood Collaborative Research Centre at MSVU, a Health Promoter for the Health for All Family Health Team, and is now a Health Promotion Specialist for PSP Health Promotion in Petawawa.
Denver met her partner before he joined the military. He was called up to basic about five months into their relationship. They've been together for four and a half years. They were posted to Petawawa in September 2021 while Denver was six months pregnant.
Prior to this posting they had a long distance relationship as her partner completed his DP1, with working in Halifax while he was at Borden.
Contact us:
We would love to hear from you. If you are a Military Family Member that wants to share your experiences and lessons learned, email us at Podcast.Feedback@PetawawaMFRC.com
Julie [Intro]:
Welcome to Military Family Life, the podcast for Canadian military family members, by military family members. Do you ever wish you had a guidebook or mentor to help you with some of the challenges you're facing as part of a military family? Each episode we're going to bring you the stories of people who have been there, they're going to share the lessons that they've learned along the way to help you live your best military family life.
Julie [0:00:27]:
Hi, and welcome to another edition of Military Family Life. My name is Julie Hollinger. Recently, my co-host Claudia Beswick and I were having a conversation about the guests that we have had joining us over the last year as we've done this podcast. Many of them had been with a military for many, many years, and we were thinking it might be interesting to talk to a new military spouse. what was their experience, and how did they feel about joining this brand-new lifestyle.
Denver Hilland grew up in the GTA and was a professional level ballerina until she left for university. She earned a Bachelor of Arts, kinesiology, and physical education, from Wilfrid Laurier University and a Master of Arts health promotion from Dalhousie University. Denver was the project coordinator for the Early Childhood Collaborative Research Center at MSVU, Health Promoter for the Health for All Family Health Team, and is now a Health Promotion Specialist for PSP Health Promotion in Petawawa. Denver met her partner before he joined the military. He was called up to basic about five months into the relationship. They've been together for about four and a half years, and they were posted to Petawawa in September 2021, when Denver was about six months pregnant. Prior to this posting, they were doing long distance during his DP1; Denver was working in Halifax while he was in Borden. We hope that you enjoy the conversation that Claudia and I had with Denver Hilland.
Julie [0:01:42]:
Hi, and thanks for joining us, Denver. It's great to have you here with us. If you are familiar with the podcast, you know that as we start off with the conversation, our first question is always introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what your connection is to the military.
Denver:
Okay, yeah, this is an interesting question, because I didn't know how to start it because I'm kind of, have a bit of a unique role here. So, I'm a military partner. And I've been, well, I was a military partner, but I only became a military partner with a partner partway through my relationship. So, he joined after we started dating.
So, I've been a partner for about four years. But then, I also have this additional unique relationship with the military because I work for PSP as a Health Promotion Specialist. So, for the past year, after I came off maternity leave, I started working at DDH and working really closely with military personnel. So, my relationship to the military is still new and budding, and I'm learning a lot of things. But I have kind of the military partner side of it, the military family side of it, but then I also get a completely different view of it when I when I come to work.
Claudia:
When your partner joined, were you familiar with the military lifestyle? I mean, outside of what you knew from your health promotions?
Denver [0:03:00]
No, not at all. Not at all.
Claudia:
So brand new.
Denver:
Yeah.
Claudia:
And were you surprised by anything?
Denver:
Um, yeah, it was interesting, because, so, I grew up in the GTA: I grew up in Markham. And when I went to high school, I went to an arts high school, and arts and military, I don't know, they've
given me a lot of overlapping interest. But, so, when people graduated from my high school, the expectation was like, everybody went to university, I didn't know anybody who had gone to the military or thought about the military. So, my perception of the military growing up was kind of what you see in movies, right? It's like boot camps. It's people running around in camo, doing jumping jacks, and being yelled at. That was my perception.
And then, so, when my partner and I started dating, he was actually just about to write the aptitude test. So, this was something that he, you know, kind of explained to me. And he mentioned that, oh yeah, no, they have other jobs. It's not just running around with toys, right? Like there's, they have their own dentists. They have their own admin. And I was like, “Oh, that's really cool”. So, he's still an OJT to be a vehicle technician. But the way that he explained it was that he, you know, essentially, was going in to get a trade, to learn a trade, but also being paid at the same time. And I was like, “Well, that makes a lot of sense,” as somebody who has a lot of, had a lot of student debt. I was like that, that makes a lot of sense to me. But prior to that, I really didn't that really was my perception. And I, I went into, because we were still so fresh. And so, he, he applied to the military, wrote his aptitude test, and then he said, “Oh, you know, they won't call me up for a while.” Usually, the intake process takes a long time because he had some friends in the military. He comes from a small town. He knew some friends from college that had joined, and he said, “Oh, yeah, it's going to be like a while and I was like, “Okay, great, because then when you go to basic training, we'll have been dating for a while, and we'll know what we're doing”.
And then they call him four months later. So, it was a bit of a, I don't think I was like really mentally prepared for it. I was kind of like, “Oh, I guess we're in this now”. But also, for me, I made it very clear, because we were early on in our relationship, I said, “Look, I'm not interested in being a single mom, like number one,” like, I know about myself that I really wanted out of life was that I wanted to be a parent at some point. And I, again, had that kind of perception of the military, that deployments are a thing. They move around a lot. And I said, “Look, I'm not really interested in that lifestyle. So, if that's why you're joining the military, this is probably not a good idea.” And he was like, “No, I don't want to go on deployment. If I was a young person, sure, I would have done it. But you know, once you and I started a family, like your, you'll be my priority.” So, I took I took him in his word.
Julie:
Bless your heart.
Denver [0:06:05]:
Yeah, I mean, I made that very clear. And now that we're in it, I think my perception has changed a little bit. I think that we're both really dedicated to this organization. Like we're both immersed in it now that if you really wanted to do a deployment to say that he did, I would be open to it. And I would, of course, support him. But yeah, I took a hard stance when we first started dating because I wanted to make sure he knew that that's not really the road, I wanted to go down.
Julie:
Now, you didn't have the benefit of having Claudia and my input early in your relationship. But we would have told you way back then that any timeline that the military provides you with, you need to take with some serious grain of salt, because…
Denver:
Yeah, I know that now.
Julie:
Something that's not going to happen for a long time is going to happen tomorrow. And something that's happening any day, like that could happen at any point.
Denver:
Yes, six months from now, for sure.
Julie:
Things are really written in the sand.
Does your spouse have any background with the military? It just seems that, was he in that area? Or was it just something that he, did he see like the recruiting ad on TV that we always think and maybe that's not a bad idea?
Denver [0:07:12]:
I know he had. So, we're getting married in the fall. And one of the guys in his wedding party. He's been in the military for a long time now. So, one of his close friends had joined. And I think Jake, kind of like was drawn to the lifestyle and had heard a lot about, like, the benefits of it. And I think for Jake, there's, you know, the pension is a big one. That's a big draw for him. The idea that he could learn to trade, I think for him, he always really wanted to make sure that you know, if the military wasn't a lifelong thing for him that he would want to leave with some sort of skill, and something to show for it.
So yeah, he, I mean, he also came from a small town. And I think that there's a lot more people that are, you either knew people in the military; Jake's dad was in the military for a small stint. So, he, he kind of understood the lifestyle and knew about it a little bit more than I did, because I really didn't, I didn't know anybody that had been in the military.
Claudia:
So, as a family, you have the same journey going through military life, right? But they're, the paths are a little bit different. So, if I were to ask you, what did you think, what, what did you feel was the biggest struggle or challenge for you once you were in? Versus what your partner thought was the biggest struggle challenge? Do you think it was the same? Do you think it was different?
Denver:
I think that we have a very unique experience, because COVID happened while he was in training. So, he went into basic training, oh, gosh, I think in 2019, did the 10 weeks and then we decided, he was going to be in Borden for his DP1. And we knew that, and we knew that after that he was going to get moved. So, I was lucky enough that we were we were both at similar stages in our lives. I didn't have a solid career, I had just finished my, my degree. And I was like, “Well, I'm going to just go ahead and move to Halifax, then while you're in Borden, and take a project coordinator, research project coordinator position at the time.”
And then COVID happened in the middle of that. So, we were doing long distance, and then the bases all closed, and I came home, and we were doing isolation in my parent’s basement. So, we’ve done like long distance, and then all of a sudden, we were seeing each other 24/7 with my parents in the same house. And I would say that was arguably one of the hardest parts of our relationship for me. I don't think so much for him. But for him, I would say was when the bases opened back up, and he had to go back, but there were a lot of restrictions in place. So, he was essentially like, like confined to base like, he wasn't supposed to be coming home on the weekends.
And I think that that was a really big challenge for him, particularly going through the schooling portion where he was writing tests regularly. And that's not really something like Jake's a hands, he's a hands-on guy. That's the reason why he wants to be a vehicle technician because he likes using his hands, he likes using his body. And so, taking the tests was like a huge challenge. And then you had the added pressure of only, you know, having to eat boxed meals every day that you just walked through the mess picked up your box meal and then you had to eat in, in your room, you had to wear a mask everywhere. And then on top of that, he was not allowed to come see me. And I think that as, as much as it was a stressful situation for me, I knew that it was 10 times more stressful for him. So, I kind of just was the I was the grounding factor to get him through that time. And then we're like, “Hey, let's throw a baby in the mix when…”
Claudia [0:10:54]:
He's, uh, he's adorable. So, you know, what can you say? Yeah.
Denver:
Yeah, he's a pretty great, good, I can't complain. Yeah, so I would say that that was, that was still challenging for me. I had to; I was having my own stressors. I was, you know, trying to navigate, remote work and all that kind of stuff. And then I was also dealing with like pregnancy hormones. And he was having just like the worst time at Borden trying to get through all his tests and stuff like that. And so, we were trying to like really stay grounded. And meanwhile, like, we really only had, we had like five months of a honeymoon period in our relationship. And then it was like, and basic and long distance and COVID, and pregnancy, it was like, we just had this roller coaster wild ride of our relationship. So yeah, I don't know, I would say that we probably agree on what the difficult parts have been. COVID was definitely one of the larger challenges. But I also think that now that I work for the organization, and I interact with military members on a daily basis, and I see the challenges that they go through, and then you know, working fairly closely with the PMFRC and speaking with families and stuff like that, I have, it's actually been better for our relationship, because I have a really strong understanding of the struggles that he goes through and the stresses that he goes through on a daily basis. One, I now understand all the acronyms I use, because I also using acronyms now.
Claudia:
And on the upside, in all fairness, Denver, I'm pretty sure that with health promotions, you have your own accurate… acronyms that he's going to have to learn, right?
Denver:
Oh, my God, we do.
Julie [00:12:42]:
Yeah, there's always.
Denver:
Yeah. Um, yeah, so I understand the culture, I understand the stresses. And I also understand that it's not just his perception of like, oh, this unit is being you know, weenie, or this is like, really challenging, or this is really stressful. Like, I actually hear it from other people, you know, like this unit is, you know, who doesn't have the greatest leadership, or they don't have, you know, they're not really supporting their members super well, and I can see it and I think it validates his experience and validates his perception. So yeah.
Julie:
So, one of the things when you join the military is, you sort of have an idea of the path you're going to take, but you don't necessarily know where you're going to end up living. So, you know, you start this journey together, he joins the military in the back of your head, you know, the fact that in six months from now, we're going to be living in a town that's not Toronto. Most likely…
Claudia:
That was my next question.
Julie:
And most likely, not Toronto, you have a degree, you have a career, you have a job in Halifax that is also a remote. You're just sort of building. He's starting his career, he started same time, but you are as well. But and I think speaking on behalf of military spouses, we sort of understand the challenges, you have a career that's on a trajectory, but you're not necessarily controlling where you're going to live. Now, I love Petawawa. But we all know that when you get to Petawawa with the career opportunities, the, the sheer range of them isn't the same as maybe a Halifax or a Toronto. So, for you, what does that look, look like when you know you're in Halifax, you have a job, presumably that you like, and you find out that you're going to Petawawa? How does that affect? Okay, so how do I build my life from here?
Claudia [0:14:23]:
Well, first before you answer that, what was your initial reaction when you heard you were coming to Petawawa?
Julie:
I'm not going to lie. I cried when I heard Petawawa. Oh, I love it now, but when he first, when we first moved to Petawawa it was not a good day for me.
Denver:
I think I knew that it was going to be, I mean, I knew it was an option, right? There was only a select few bases that were accepting his trade at the time for OJT. Yes. Right. So, I knew that it was it was an option. Oh my gosh, there's so many questions involved there. So, my mindset going into it and trying to navigate it was like I said, I'm early in my career. I'm flexible. I'm not super attached. So, what I actually was doing was accepting contracts. So, the position as a research project coordinator in Nova Scotia was an eight-month contract. And so, I had planned it that my contract would be ending around the same time that Jake was supposed to be done his OJT so that when he got posted, I would be okay.
Julie:
You're a girl who likes a plan. That's impressive.
Denver [0:15:34]:
I'm… Oh, yeah, totally. But I'm also like, so I, my, my contract kept getting extended because we kept getting funding, and I was getting these opportunities. And I was getting these propositions of like, you could take on this really massive, provincial wide research project. And I knew that I was probably going to have to say no, which was really hard, especially when you're early in your career. And then somebody is saying, “Hey, I love the work that you're doing. I want you to keep going keep doing what you're doing. Let's, let's expand this.”
I think COVID kind of helped me in that regard, where like, I flew back from Nova Scotia, for quarantine, because I didn't want to, I didn't want to be in Nova Scotia by myself. And as it kept going, because remember, when COVID happened, and we all thought it was going to only be two weeks.
Julie:
And two weeks at home, sounded it nice. It was two weeks.
Denver:
Yeah, we were like, two weeks was the big deal. And then it kept going.
So, I actually had left all my stuff in Nova Scotia, I had left my car there, I had left all of my clothes, I brought like three pairs of pants with me. I was like, I'll be back soon. And so, at some point, like I was working remotely, we were kind of, you know, doing, actually getting research passed and getting through ethics fairly quickly, because you had to kind of navigate this weird remote world. And as it kept going on, I was like, I really don't think that I'm actually going to end up going back to Nova Scotia, because by the time this is all over, Jake's going to be posted, and I'm going to have to move. So, what I actually started doing was I looked for jobs in Ontario. In the meantime, because I was getting, yeah, I was I was, my contract was, kept getting extended, but it just like, wasn't, it wasn't the same. I wanted to be in the office, I wanted to be part of a team. That's how I work best. So, I actually ended up accepting a position as a health promoter in Markham before he got posted to Petawawa, so I worked in Markham for almost a year.
And same thing, it was a contract position, and I was accepting contracts because I knew that I didn't want to get emotionally attached to a job. Now, of course, I had that extended, they took me on full-time, and they were like, “Please stay,” I said, “I can't.” And I think again, it's all about the mindset going into it. I have had many conversations with my partner about how this job this career for him is essentially the equivalent to him doing his undergrad. Like, I did my undergrad, I did my masters, my schooling is done right for now. We’ll see bout a PhD in a couple years.
So, my schooling is done. In my opinion, I would like to be in the workforce. For now, I would like to build my resume. I'd like to work on cool stuff and just do what I do best. Whereas he hadn't really found his passion yet. So, him getting this trade and working on this trade is his version of schooling. So, I'm going to support that as best as I can. And we've had many conversations about how I will be making sacrifices early on, and hopefully in the future, if the military is not a permanent thing, or even if it is, at some point, if I want to make a big career move, let's prioritize my career later on.
Now, I'm sure that you as seasoned military spouses probably had similar conversations, and I'm sure it didn't go the same way. However, I think that, you know, there's balance there. I am lucky enough to be in my field. I'm lucky enough to have a position that, you know, I'm doing the stuff that I went to school for, and I'm happy I love this team I and it's an organization that military personnel, yeah, I didn't know much about them. I had a certain understanding of who military people were before I started working with them. But it also is a really incredible experience because they are such a unique population, and they have very specific needs. And that's what health promotion is all about. Health Promotion is all about the social determinants of health. It's, it's meeting people and looking at where their health inequities are, and how do we support that so it's, I mean, it's meeting my needs in terms of you know, that academic like analytical side of things, and how do I support, and how do I need to meet a populations’ needs? So, yeah, I think that in the future, if things change, or if I do want to do a PhD, and we want to make sacrifices that way, then we'll have a conversation. Essentially, how we're approaching it is that he will keep signing on five years, five-year contracts, until it no longer serves us. Every time he has to sign... Every time he has to sign a new contract, we'll have a conversation “Is this lifestyle, so is it still serving us?” And I'm sure that as time goes on that, it'll get harder and harder to leave. Which is fine. If, if we're happy here, I don't have a problem with that.
Claudia [0:20:43]:
You know, I'm kind of the opposite of you in the sense where my, my dad was military. So, I kind of had an inkling of it before I married into it. And I think our conversation wasn't clearly defined like yours, in a sense was, he got posted, I followed, and I find a job wherever, wherever it was that we ended up. And I think, if I would have been, you know, if I was talking to my young self saying, “Have a plan and do this, and this is what you're going to do,” I would be really surprised. But I'll tell you, my husband gave up his reg force position for me to take the job in Petawawa. So, you just never know where your path leads. And yeah, I think it's fantastic that you guys have had that conversation upfront, and, and you have a plan in place, and he's pretty lucky to have you.
Denver:
Oh, thanks. Yeah, we, we definitely, I think the other thing that we've talked about a lot is that there's a certain level of trust, and I think we have the benefit of having him, he wasn't in the military, when we first started dating, so we kind of I came first, I can honestly, I can always make that argument.
But I have a trust that if the lifestyle got too challenging, or, if the lifestyle was really causing enough issues for us that I have no doubt in my mind that if I asked him to step away from the military that he would. I know that there's a lot of families where that's not true. And the military comes first for them. And you know that they, yeah, potentially married into the military that the, the military didn't come after. But Jake also has a lot of trust that I would probably never ask him. You know, that's the type of person that I am.
Claudia:
The time flies so fast. I'm telling you, when he made the decision to release so I could take the executive director job at the MFRC. He had 28 years in
Denver:
Wow.
Claudia:
And he got out of the reg force. And he, we came here and then he went full time reservist. And it's been nine years since. And he's still in, he's still wearing the uniform. So, but if I think back now, the time has just flown by, it's hard to believe that it's been, you know, 30 plus years now that he's been ingrained. And yeah, we've each enable to have a priority.
Julie:
Yeah, we just hit 28-year anniversary. And when I first married my husband, he said that we were going to do this for like, just five years, that whole best five years thing, it seems to be this sliding scale that I'm never going to be at the end of it. But we were only going to do this for five years. And we would we look at it. And, and we'd have these discussions and five years was there. But then by the time five years came, so much of our life had changed, right? By then we had a baby, and I was on maternity leave. And yeah, it made sense for him to continue. And then five years later, you know, we had another baby on the way, I wasn't loving my job, I was at home. So, it made sense to continue. So, so many times, you made an interesting comment earlier that, you know, when you first got together, you weren't going to be a single parent, you didn't want to do a deployment. And at that time, knowing what you knew, that was sort of the parameters you put around it. But then you said, you know, now that I've gotten into it a little bit more now that we have a different relationship. And I think that we change as people, you have a different view on “Okay, maybe I could live with that.”
Denver [0:24:00]:
Yeah. I think also, though, my perception would probably change if I didn't know what Jake and I were like, doing long distance. So, you know what I mean? So…
Julie:
It's one thing living with your parents in the basement, it's a very much another thing where you haven't actually seen each other in a really long time.
Denver:
Totally right. And so, I almost am a bit grateful, because I had a lot of, I mean, I don't think that I was ever in a relationship that didn't involve long distance at some point. And I never really felt like it, it worked. I didn't always feel like the commitment was the same level on both sides. And so, at five months when your partner is like, “Hey, I'm going to go to basic training where I'm probably going to be an emotional wreck and I'm going to be super fatigued and I'm actually not going to be able to talk to you, maybe for half an hour night, but also probably not at all.” That is a huge test and of course me, as a researcher, “I'm like, Sure, let's do this. Let's see if this works. Because I think at the end of it, you know, if, after 10 weeks were like that, that didn't work, then we could step away from it.” And it was early enough in our relationship that I wouldn't have been super crushed.
But we both walked into it with, I think, such a good healthy mindset of like, let's give this a go, let's, let's see how it works. Now, I wrote him a letter that he was allowed to open every week of basic training. And then it got easier as the weeks went on, because he was allowed off base, and we would meet in Kingston on the weekend. So, we, we worked really hard. And that's the one thing that I will say about our relationship. And I think why we continue to be so strong as a couple is that there's never a question of, of dedication, he will always give me, or meet you, where I'm at, and, and demonstrate that he cares in this relationship, and I will do the same. And yeah, times will get tough. And we'll be, you know, doing long distance where I'm in Halifax, and he's in Borden, and then we'll be seeing each other 24/7. And he's playing so many video games, and you can hear him in all corners of the house yelling at the television, and, but we will, at some point, you know, meet in the middle, and make it work. And the dedication is always there. And that's something that I have, that was how I knew that he was the person was that he was meeting me halfway, I never felt like I was giving more than my fair share in the relationship. And that being said, that's one of the reasons why I think Petawawa is working so well. Because like I said, I am lucky enough to be in a position where I get to exercise my I get to flex my brain a lot.
Claudia:
My one question for you is, if you had to give some advice to a new couple, or a new spouse or partner that's coming, thinking of joining the, you know, the military, what would that be?
Denver:
I think, one you have to work very hard at empathy. So, the military, and I mean, this is just my perception, but I don't know, I haven't yet seen somebody who joined the military and didn't change in some way. Because the culture is so strong, sometimes good, sometimes bad. And so, as a partner, if you're if your partner is wanting to join the military, you have to have an understanding that that is going to change them, because they're going to be so immersed in, in this military culture. So having, having empathy for that, that their job and their, the stresses that they experience are very real, very real. And they are told that that's the most important thing, that these are the stresses that you should care about, and that you should prioritize.
Claudia [0:27:54]:
Yeah.
Denver:
And then on the other side of it, if you are the military partner, and you know, your civilian spouse is supporting you through this, advocate for yourself within the military to, to make sure that you're continuing to support your spouse. So I mean, childcare is a huge issue, and Petawawa, and I have heard from a lot of military personnel, and I've experienced it myself, that's a huge that was a huge stressor in our relationship, because ultimately, his chain of command was saying, or his perception of what his chain of command was saying was that your civilian spouse takes the hit for this, she needs to stay home and watch the kid if your child care falls through, and that military personnel that that the culture is changing, and that they need to advocate for themselves in need to advocate for their family and take their, their fair share. Because honestly, they can't be their, their full selves, they can't be a full soldier if their family is not supported, and their family is not behind them. So, I think for new couples, there needs to be a common empathy in the fact that you're both experiencing huge lifestyle changes, but lean on, you know why you love that person and why you care about that person. And I, it'll hopefully sort of sort itself out because it is going to be a huge change. But if you lean on why you're together and what you, what you love most about your partner, you'll always see that and it will always shine through, it's just that it might look a little bit different. And if they joined the military, there might be a few more F-bombs thrown in there.
Claudia:
Just a few.
Denver:
But who they are to the core will always be there. And I think lean on organizations like the PMFRC where there's, there's an abundance of resources for military families. And it makes it so much easier when you have a network of people who are going through the same thing. I now have a network of really wonderful military spouses that I was playing volleyball with once a week, and we just chat about all sorts of stuff. And I feel very lucky because two of them actually had their kids, they just had their babies like a month and a month and a half before I had my son. So, we're all in this very same stage of, you know, maternity life and all that kind of stuff. And our kids are going through the same milestones. And they get it. They get the lifestyle. They get the challenges. They get their partners going on exercise. They get all of that stuff and can really support you emotionally through the process. So, I would say lean on resources and lean on why you are with that person.
Julie:
I think it’s so important to find those friends that “get it” because, like you, I did not have any friends or know anybody who was associated with the military. So, you know, all of a sudden, my partner’s in the military and he is gone all of the time. That whole idea of, you know, if childcare falls through that he’s going to take time off to look after, that never happened. It was, I don’t know if it was a perception, I don’t know if it was just something that he was bringing home. That was always falling to me.
Or, you know, something would happen, he would be going on, have a deployment coming and my friends would be “Just tell them ‘No’.” Well, that’s just not an option. I don’t know what you think is happening here, but that’s like, just not an option.
Denver [0:31:12]:
Yeah
Julie:
You talked about the important of having those discussions, and how important they are, when my husband is home, day-to-day we sort of text during the day, we talk during the day, we have a couple, you know, several conversations throughout. When he’s gone for an extended period of time, it’s a different relationship. I mean, if he was to text me or call me every single day while he is away, I have nothing to say to you. Like, your relationship is at a different phase. Like, he’s living his life because he is away, and I’m living, you know, I’ve got my kids and I’m not telling him everything that’s happening day-to-day; it’s a different season. And, I think, if you expect your relationship to be exactly the same as when he’s home and when he’s away, you’re setting yourself up for a fall.
Claudia:
Ladies, you make me feel so old. I’m telling you, when I was first in, then my husband was first in, we didn’t have cellphones to text, and chat, and when he was away…
Julie:
Oh, this was later on. Like, I was a letter writing spouse.
Denver:
Did you send, did you send a carrier pigeon?
Claudia [0:32:10]:
Yes, I’m telling you, and let me tell you, when he was away, out in Wainwright on training, it was like “Okay, make sure you’re at home by 7 o’clock on Sunday night, that’s when I’m going to call.” ‘Cause there’s like, one, two, phone booths out there and hundreds of the guys wanted to use the phones to call home so it was definitely a different time back then so when you are sitting there talking about texting and cell phones and it’s like, “Oh my gosh, I am so darn old.”
Julie:
Just before we move on, Denver is probably too young to remember this, but I remember getting calls from my husband where he would wait until I answered…
Claudia:
Stop…
Julie:
And then hear “kachunk-kachunk-kachunk-kachunk-kachunk” ‘cause then he would start feeding the rest of the quarters in and then we would have a conversation. I remember I would hear the answer then “kachunk-kachunk-kachunk-kachunk.”
Claudia:
How do your parents and your in-laws, what were they thinking when you joined? Because, obviously, if you have no experience or knowledge of the military and then you can imagine what your perception was, what was your, the perception of your parents and his parents as well?
Denver [0:33:14]:
Yeah, that’s a good question. My parents didn’t know anything about the military, however, my aunt, I think she, she dated, or I think she was actually engaged to a military man at some point, before she met my uncle.
Julie:
Who shall remain nameless.
Denver:
But, so, there’s been a couple of sprinklings of stories that have been shared, so, like when, I think when my mom chatted with her friends. They would be like, “Oh, I know somebody who was in the military,” or whatever. And, obviously, when you are speaking to people who are of that generation, it’s more of the old military, and so, it was often a lot of stories of caution of, you how, how potentially military families might get left behind, and how it was really challenging, and that kind of stuff. And how, how things would always fall to the military spouse, so, I think that my mom, if anything, it was more, like, she would always support me. If I love my partner and I am happy then that’s fantastic. I think that her, she would just show concern about some of the stories she had heard and making sure that I made the best decision for me and for my future family. But, obviously, given all the prep and discussions, I’m not just going to blindly hop into a lifestyle that I don’t understand. I think she felt fairly okay with it.
So, I think that there was a little bit of explanation also, that, you know that, like what I said, where I didn’t know that they had dentists and admin people. So, it was a little bit of that too. When you understand the reasons why he’s in the military it’s really smart because, like I said, me and my brothers are all saddled with student debt, and so, to get an education and get paid for it and also be getting a pension as well, like at the same time, is brilliant; it’s a really smart move.
Now that there’s a grandchild in the mix, my mom is, she drives up from Brantford once a month. She makes that 7 ½ hour drive. So, I think that’s part of the challenge as well, is just that she worries that we’ll get moved around or posted to different places. But yeah, I think his family was supportive. I think they new that it was always something that he wanted to do. Yeah, Jake’s family was very supportive. His dad, you know, wanted him to be in the military. Yeah, Jake, I don’t think really listens to, would listen to the, his family anyways if they didn’t want him to do it, I don’t think he would really care. I think he's, he will, he will, you know, chose his own path.
But yeah, I definitely had to explain the reasons why and describe what things were going to look like to my family. My family is very academic; they don’t come from that world. And now my brother’s living in Europe doing his Ph.D. and I don’t think he understands the appeal of being in the military, why there’s a military, all of that kind of stuff. So, we don’t really see eye-to-eye on certain things. But, at the same time, you know, we’re happy that we, that this lifestyle works for us right now. So, yeah, I don’t know.
My family’s always been really supportive of whatever my choices are, and it obviously gets more challenging when you have kids in the mix. And, I will say that being in Petawawa, the family life that I pictured in terms of like, my kid’s relationship with their extended family looks different than what I had always envisioned. Like, in my perfect world, we’d be going to my mom’s for Sunday dinners all the time, and you know, my brothers would all be there. Like I said, one of my brothers is in Germany, so, with his wife, so that was never going to happen anyway.
But I wish I could be a little closer to home because you do notice, you notice the difference, that you can’t just pop over to hang out with a girlfriend and chat for an afternoon to catch up. You can’t just, you know, drive to your grandma’s house and, and have lunch. It doesn’t work the same way when you live far away. And then, it’s extra hard when you have this little person who’s changing constantly, and every time they see their grandkid or their, their great-nephew, their, he’s a different little person, right? But again, it also just changes how we interact with each other then. You know, my brother has come up several times to come and visit, he was just here this past weekend, and recognizing that it can’t always just be us driving to the GTA and they have to come up here and explore the wilderness.
But also, that like, you know, I mean my brother’s been in Germany, my other, (sorry, I have two brothers) but one of them has been in Germany for several years now, and so we’ve been kind of trying to reinvent what family get-togethers look like anyway. So, pre-COVID, we have booked a trip to Portugal because we were just like, “Let’s just meet somewhere in the world.” You know, we’re all coming from different places, so let’s just pick somewhere that, like, we’re not going to have traditional Christmas anymore, with a Christmas tree at my mom’s house. We’ll just have to make do and see each other in different ways as best we can. Yeah. It changes the extended family dynamic as well. I feel a little bit lucky that we, as much as Petawawa was, I don’t, I don’t know where it was on my list. Now that I think about it, I don’t know where it was.
Julie [0:38:49]:
You can’t build a list. You can’t put that list together. I watch the spouse groups and they are like, “The career manager has asked for our top 3 places”. And I’m like, “Awe, you’re not going to any of those places.”
Denver:
Don’t do that.
Julie:
Don’t put your favourite down on that list, you’re never going to go there.
Denver:
Yeah, I know. It’s so funny. I think we were thinking about Gagetown at one point. But that’s because they have appealing housing prices. But Petawawa, at least, is in the same province. So, I appreciate that it’s drive worthy. That if something where to happen or, you know, we needed to go see a family member, we could get there, that we wouldn’t have to worry about flights or anything like that. So, it’s close-ish.
Julie:
And it’s been my experience that family that actually braves the highway and comes to Petawawa is always pleasantly surprised at how nice it is here.
Denver:
Yes.
Julie:
And then they understand, they understand why you want to be here. It’s a nice place.
Denver:
It is! There’s stuff here.
Claudia:
For every month but the winter
Julie:
True story. Do you find that the friends you have made here, like your other mom friends, do you think you are closer to your friends because they sort of have become like a family to you, or do you have different relationships, do you think, because your family lives farther away?
Denver [0:40:00]:
Yeah, I think so, actually. When I think about, not even just the social aspect, when I think of the practical aspect where I was having childcare issues, and I just have a, we have a friend group chat, and I would be like, “Is anybody home this day?”. And, even if they couldn’t do it, it was the “I’m so sorry you’re going through this again. I feel you,” you know? There was like, that expression of empathy. But also, that, if somebody needs a ride somewhere, or so, my partner has a sever allergic reaction to a mango the other day, and we had to go to emerge. Yeah, wild story.
But anyways, we called up a close friend, so we actually are very close with the warrant, Jake’s warrant, from basic training. She’s posted here as well, and they maintained a very close relationship. And her partner is a vehicle technician, was a vehicle technician for a long time, and so it was kind of like mentoring Jake when he was having a hard time during tests and stuff like that. And so, they are really close now, and he is also going to be in his wedding party. So, this couple, who has been, they’re both service members and has been in, they’ve been in for a very long time, they just, they get it. And, when I went into labour, they shovelled our driveway, and dropped off a lasagna.
And when Jake was coming, when I had to drive into emerge, I called, I think it rang once, and I said, “Hey, I have to take Jake into emerge.” And he was like, “Yup,” and that was it. Right? Just showed up and, and stayed with, cause my son was already asleep, but he stayed there until 1 o’clock in the morning when we came back from emerge. You know? Like, so there’s just really good people that you can rely on for some of the, like I said, not just the social things, but just the annoying, nitty-gritty things of what it’s like to be a parent because they’ve been there. They understand that stuff happens, and you just need support.
And when you don’t have family, that lives close by, like I know if I called my mom, she would be here, but in seven hours. So, you know? It’s just not, you don’t have, there’s not the same access. Even if people can’t necessarily support, they get it, and they will connect you. So, it would be like, I remember when, one of the times, when Callahan’s daycare cancelled, like that morning, and that’s when I heard about the PMFRC, like the specialized care program, was through that group. I was like, “Oh. Okay, awesome,” and they were sending me, like, phone numbers, “Have you tried this? Have you tried this?” And, you know, they’re constantly sending me advertisements as soon as somebody posts that they have spots open for daycare, they would be posting in the group chat, being like, or tagging me in posts, right? There’s just really good humans who understand the struggles that you’re going through and are constantly thinking about you. They’re thinking about how they can support you, which is really, really, incredible. And I know that my family would do that, if they were here, but they’re not, and so you’re leaning on, yeah, those friendships a little bit, in different way.
Julie:
At any given time during the, during the winter, my husband knows everybody on our street who’s deployed. So, he’ll go out and do the driveway with the snowblower, then he’s down the street there, and then back. And he’s like, “You know? I think about all the people that came and blew the snow when it was just you and the girls, and you were stuck, and he’s like, “It’s my turn to pay that forward.” And he’s happy to do it, right? And they keep track amongst themselves. If he leaves for a week, you know, it’s, it’s, “Yeah. Absolutely, I got it. We got it organized.” And I find that there’s a camaraderie, you kind of help each other.
And I found that COVID was hard because I am very close to my family, and sort of, was always there for those occasions, but you build other networks. And after a while you sort of realize how important those relationships can be.
Denver [0:43:48]:
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. There’s that kind of, just, you don’t even need and explanation, sometimes you don’t even need to ask the, your network will be there for you, which is really, really, cool. That’s one of the things that I definitely appreciate about the, the military family side of things. And I, and I think that is one of the contributing factors to why, every five years when you approach that conversation of “Should I re-sign?,” is, I think it’s partly that, too, right? You build these really strong bonds with people that just get it, they understand the culture and they become so engrained in your lives that you can’t really, we can’t separate the two. You know?
Julie:
So, you’ve given us the larger, philosophical, have more conversations, think deeply advice. But let’s get to the nitty-gritty advice of things that really make a difference, and Claudia and I can kind of go first. So, whenever someone goes on a deployment, my number one advice is always “Lower your expectations.” Like, you know? Don’t expect your house to be clean, you’re going to have cereal, your kids are going to eat McDonald’s. Let go that everything is going to be perfect. Get off of Pinterest. No one puts together a morale box as pretty as that box. Like, you know? It may just be cereal samples that you got in the mail, that’s all they need; it’s a box.
Denver:
That’s fine. Yeah.
Julie [0:45:02]:
This way, like…So, I think there are a lot more practical kind of advice. Claudia, do you have like practical kind of pieces of advice for new military spouses? The “you’re not going to hear this anywhere else, but this is what would really make a difference for you.”
Claudia:
I don’t know if it’s “practical advice,” I’d just like to say that the, the things that I did while my husband was gone was just to survive, right? Be kind to yourself. Don’t be afraid to ask for help. And, you know, bribe your kids. I mean, we had a, we had a candy jar on the fridge and there was, we would count the candy to say, “Okay, you know, daddy’s going to be gone for 60 nights, and so there’s 60 candy there.” So, before they go to bed each night, you give them a candy. And then we could count, if the were interested. After a couple of weeks, they gave up counting, which was really good because then they never tell you when they are going to come home, or they tell you, “I’ll be home on this day, but it might be on this day.” So, when the kids stop counting the candy for how many nights that was left, you can sneak a couple more back in there.
So, I just echo what Julie said, you just do what you got to do to survive, and cut yourself some slack, because at the end of the day, and this depends, too, on how frequent they go away, right? Like, I think, if they go away, and you have little ones, or, when they go away and you have teenagers, that’s a while different ball game. I’ve got stories on that front, too. But, again, for another day.
Julie:
When the, when the spouse is away, and you take pictures, that child’s always going to have a bruise. Like, don’t wait for a time where they look good, it’s never, it’s never going to go well.
Claudia [0:46:32]:
No.
Julie:
Someone is always going to fall the day before a nice picture has to be taken.
Claudia:
Yeah.
Denver:
I don’t know if I have advice, I mean, so he’s never, my partner has never been on deployment, I don’t know if I can speak to that. But I will say that what really works for us is when I stop, and part of this is when I started working for PSP and I actually started to understand the way that the military works, is to stop trying to solve. So, when they come home, and they’re P.O.-ed about the chain of command, and whatever it is, is to, is to just listen and be like, “Yeah.” That’s, yes. Right? Because that’s, you can’t, A) you can’t fix it, they already feel powerless, and, also, civilian roles just don’t apply. So, what your expectation is in your workplace, cause there’s so many times where my partner has said something, and I’m like, “Well, that doesn’t seem legal, you should call HR.” You know? Where I’m like, “I, that would not fly with me.”
Claudia:
Wait, wait! Does the CAF have an HR department?
Denver [0:47:40]:
It’s like there’s been, previously, you know, there’s been so many times where I’m like, “Uhh? You should probably do something about this.” I know that now, now I understand that he can’t really, right? Like, so many constraints, or that, you know, it’s his perception, “Is this reality? Or is this your perception?” So, when you stop trying to solve it for them, and you just listen, and just go, “Wow. I’m sorry that that’s happening,” things tend to go a lot smoother. Especially, I would say, when he was at the height of his frustrations, and his anger, and his, just all of the challenges that he was going through, you know, through COVID, and, and all of that kind of stuff. When he is at that high level of stress, he doesn’t need you to fix it at that time, he just needs you to hear him out, and then he can kind of just diffuse.
And that’s challenging because you are going through your own stress, and your own emotions, because you’re trying to handle things at home, and sometimes you also need to vent. And that can be really challenging when you know that he’s potentially going through a more stressful situation and so you’re feeling like you kind of have to put your stuff on the backburner. But, just like, I don’t know, just having open dialogue about like, “Okay, you vent now, I’m, I’m going to vent later.” And, having that common understanding that, yeah, you don’t need to solve each others’ problems, because you probably can’t. Yeah, that’s worked really well for us.
Julie:
Just invest a lot of energies into saying, “You know, the military would be easier if they did it this way.” Probably it would; they’re not going to change. One of my good friends, who has been in this a little bit longer than me, says “You need to manage your expectations.” Like, they’re doing it the way that they’re going to do it, they don’t care that there’s an easier way, that’s the way they’re doing it.
Denver:
That’s the way they’ve aways done it.
Julie [0:49:24]:
That’s the way they’ve always done it.
Denver:
And, and I mean, so, for instance, one of the, you know, when we were going through childcare challenges, and I was pretty much having anxiety every morning, being like, “Will I have care today? Will I have to sacrifice my workday?” I was so stressed at that point, and I knew that he wasn’t necessarily going to be able to take time off, and it was going to fall on me, and I knew that.
And, at one point, I just had a conversation with him where I’m like, “Even if the answer is ‘no,’ can you please ask? And, if it’s ‘no,’ that’s okay, I just need to feel like you’re going to bat for me.” You know? I just need to feel like you’re at least trying. And if it’s “no,” it’s fine, I’ll take it. I’ll take the brunt of that, I just need to feel a little bit validated, I need to feel like you are still, yeah, going to bat for our family and prioritizing our needs. And that was fine, you know, I would still potentially take the day, have to take the day, or work from home, or whatever it was, but I just felt validated in my experience because I knew that he was up against a wall, but I still felt like, “At least you’re yelling at the wall now! At least the wall knows now that I’m frustrated!”
Claudia:
I think it’s a bit of what Julie said to, right? You have to be your own advocate sometime and speak up for yourself, and just let them know that you do exist. And you do get to count, not to your husbands, but sometimes to the unit.
Denver [0:50:55]:
Yeah, and when we were in a tight enough squeeze where, you know, I was at that point where I was like, “I can’t. I can’t stay home today.” I have stuff to do. I have, you know, briefings, or presentations, or whatever it is. And he finally, when we were finally in that pinch where he went and asked, he was given the day off.
Claudia:
Excellent.
Denver:
He was allowed to, yeah, right? We like to see it. So, I think sometimes you almost have to be in that position where they’re, they kind of get kicked out the door for them to finally, finally ask. But it was, it was fantastic. I felt, I felt really great that he advocated for himself and for his family. And part of that also comes from having a network of people, who’ve been in long enough, who said, “Hey, you just walk in there and say, ‘I have no other options.’” And, and that’s how it’s going to go down. And, I don’t think he would have if he hadn’t been given that advice by people who were of a higher rank, who’d been in long enough, who knew, you know? Also, yeah, to not get irritated when, if they don’t listen to you.
Here, here’s my advice, okay? If they’re not listening to you, go make friends with someone who’s a much higher rank, and then have that person give the exact same advice to your partner, and everything will go smooth.
Claudia:
And then they listen, is that it?
Denver:
There you go.
Claudia [0:52:15]:
Awesome, great advice.
Julie:
On that note, I think we’re going to thank you so much, Denver. That is awesome. Your stories are great, and I remember a long time ago, sort of, being in that initial phase of being a brand-new spouse and how terrifying it was. Just, sort of, like, not necessarily knowing where we were heading, not knowing what I was going to get into. But, you know, you fall in love with who you fall in love with, and you jump into a life and make it your own as you go. But it’s not always an easy, it’s not always an easy journey. But I’ve always found that, in the end, it was worth it and I’m glad I started it.
Thank you, Denver, for joining us. Claudia, anything you want to add before we go?
Claudia:
No, I think, I really appreciate you joining us on the podcast, and I was lucky enough to get to know you a little bit, work with you, collaborate with Health Promotions, before we did the podcast. Your personality rang through. I love your spirit, I love your sense of family, and all that you do to support the CAF community. Thank you.
Julie:
So, if you are a brand-new military spouse, and you want to share your story, or if you have been around the block a few times like Claudia and I, and you have advice that you want to share, we would love to hear from you. Give us a shout. The e-mail address is in the show notes, and we would love to hear your story on Military Family Life. Thanks for joining us.
Claudia [Outro]:
And that's it for this episode of Military Family Life. From one military family member to another. If you have any advice that you would like to share, let us know! We would love to hear from you. We may even share your experiences on future episodes. If you have family and friends who want to learn more about living their best military family life, don't hesitate to let them know about our podcast. Thanks for listening. Join us again next time for more Military Family Life.