Our Conversation with Tamara Kleinschmidt

About our guest:

Tamara Kleinschmidt is the Executive Director of the Trenton Military Family Resource Centre. 

As a military spouse Tamara experienced the privilege of living across our country and beyond. Over a twenty-six-year span Tamara experienced 11 postings, the final one to Trenton in 2005. 

During this period, she completed a Bachelor of Arts Degree, Political Science, from the Royal Military College of Canada and she and her husband adopted their 3 children, one in New Brunswick and 2 in Ontario.

In this episode we talk to Tamara about:

• how the realities of Military life affected her family’s adoption process, 
• how a kind gesture by one Military spouse influenced her outlook on Military life for the next thirty years (for the better),
• her family’s rules for a smooth posting and move,
• what advice she gives to other families considering adoption, and 
• what she would do differently if she had it to do it again. 

We want to hear from you!

If you have ideas for an episode, we would love to hear them.  You can reach us at Podcast.Feedback@PetawawaMFRC.com

Transcript

Opener:

Welcome to Military Family Life, the podcast for Canadian military family members by military family members.  Did you ever wish you had a guidebook or mentor to help you with some of the challenges you're facing as part of a military family? Each episode we're going to bring you the stories of people who've been there. They're going to share the lessons that they've learned along the way to help you live your best military family life. 

Julie:

Hi, and welcome back to Military Family Life. My name is Julie Hollinger and I'm so glad that you are joining us once again. 

One of the things I like best about this podcast is having conversations with military family members, and talking to them about their past, about their stories, about their experiences. One of the things that I have always believed is that everybody you meet life has something that you can learn from - and this month's guest is no exception.

Tamara Kleinschmidt is the Executive Director of the Trenton Military Family Resource Centre. She's a military spouse that has experienced the privilege of living across the country and beyond. Over a 26-year span, she has experienced 11 postings - her final one was to Trenton in 2005. During this period, she completed a Bachelor of Arts degree in political science from the Royal Military College of Canada, and she and her husband adopted three children, one in New Brunswick and two in Ontario.

In this conversation, we talked to Tamara about the experience of being a military spouse, of moving between provinces and between countries, about some of the challenges that she faced along the way because of those changes in locations and just the challenges of being a military family member. We hope you enjoy the conversation that my co-host Claudia Beswick and I had with Tamara. 

So welcome Tamara, thank you so much for joining us. Why don't you start off - you can tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your background - who you are and what's your relationship to the military.

Tamara Kleinschmidt [00:01:50]:

My connection to the military started a really long time ago. I met someone, and married someone, who's in the military when I was 21, and started moving around the country. Later on, I got involved with Military Family Resource Centres sitting on boards of directors. It was my way of connecting to my community. And luckily enough, it turned into a career when I was able to become the Executive Director of the Trenton MFRC, and that's where I am now.

Claudia Beswick:

And I met Tamara way back when.  She was one of our volunteers at the Gagetown MFRC when we were there - and back in the day when we were able to have volunteers teach first aid, CPR courses. So, I've known her for a very long time. 

Julie [00:02:30]:

Now when I got your bio, I have to tell you, I was a little taken aback that you have moved 11 times! I cannot even imagine. Does it get easier as you go, or does it get harder?

Tamara:

I always had a real sense of adventure about it. You know, things like driving from Halifax to Victoria in the middle of February in Canada is something that I'm glad I did when I was 21 and not when I was 41 - I'll admit that. But each one of those moves for the most part, there was two memorable ones that weren't fun. But the rest of them were a blast. 

I enjoyed the adventure of every one of those moves.  Even the one that was eight months in Trenton, and we got a posting message - that was a little painful.  After the first week I got on with it, but I really enjoyed moving the whole time. So that was something that we welcome.

Julie:

I've been here for eight years. I still have boxes I haven't unpacked I can't imagine eight months. 

You'd even need the packers - put the same boxes back on the truck.

Tamara:

No, we only ever took enough stuff that we could unpack it one day, even after the kids. If we couldn't unpack it in one day, it didn't go with us. 

Julie:

Now you're talking about kids. How many kids do you have?

Tamara [00:03:45]:

We have three, Laura's 29 Ben is 21 in Sydney's 20.

Julie:

So, they grew up in a Military family. Do you think that your kids will - people always talk about the fact that kids are resilient, and they can go through all this stress. Do you think that your kids… How did your kids benefit from the military lifestyle? Because I think we don't talk about that enough. What do kids get out of it? That's positive, because I think in a lot of ways they do.

Tamara (00:04:10)

Yeah, so I mean, I've got kids who can walk into new situations fairly comfortably. They don't shy away from them. It kind of works in the reverse, you know, when you've got teenagers who are pretty much not afraid to try anything new - that can be a little bit challenging in a different way. 

But what I think it taught them is that - first of all home is wherever you make it, right. It's not a concrete or wood building, that you need structure to create that feeling of home. So, I think that that is something that's going to serve them really well as they move on and take on different challenges.  And they don't seem to be as scared to take on new challenges. Now however, they don't - they will avoid challenge too because they said you know I've had enough, right? I've done enough moves. I just want to stay put. So, there's that kind of balance between the two.  But they walk into new circumstances with a lot more confidence than I think other kids may they just have more practice.

Julie:

They've been the new kid in the room enough times that they know how to start those conversations.  It’s sink or swim, right? Like if you don't learn that skill by like move number three, you realize it's going to be a long two years. 

Claudia:

I think also it's Tamara. You know, you set a really good example for your children, and what living the military lifestyle is all about. Because you've never yourself turned away from a challenge. You've always taken things head on. And I really respect that from you, and I really think that your kids probably got a little bit of that from modeling their mom.

Tamara (00:05:50):

Well, one of the things that I've learned through adopting children is that I have a whole different perspective on nature versus nurture than I did before I started on this adventure, that's for sure.

Julie:

You mentioned adoption. You have three children. Were they adopted all in the same place? Or did you go through this journey three times in different locations?

Tamara:

We went through it twice. The first time was in New Brunswick. That's where my husband was posted – Gagetown. That's where I met Claudia. 

And then the second time was Ontario. We actually, started the process in Trenton the second time and were posted within eight months. So, we had to start it all over again in Ottawa. And it was an incredibly challenging process second time.

Julie:

Sorry you had to start the entire process over again because you changed cities but same province?

Tamara:

Yeah, because each Children's Aid Society was different. 

When we made the decision to adopt, we looked at all of the options that were available to us, including international adoption and private adoption. And we made some decisions around the kind of adoption we wanted to proceed with - and children's aid was our preferred choice.  Because, you know, you have to sit down and make some really good choices and stay focused. It's a difficult process. So, we were lucky enough that we were in agreement, and decided that we wanted to involve ourselves in an older child adoption from the Children's Aid Society. 

So, every Children's Aid Society in Ontario is different. It's a separate organization. So, we had to start the process over again when we moved halfway through.

Claudia (00:07:20)

How did you find the difference between the process from New Brunswick to Ontario? Is it vastly different? Like I can understand at least within Ontario, the organizations are different, but the provincial regulations are pretty similar. But how did you find it between Ontario and New Brunswick?

Tamara:

Well, I think they have a lot of the same construct.  You know, you have to do your application, you have to do your home study, you have to be evaluated. You have to have long conversations with social workers. That process has pretty much got the same elements in it. 

I found it simpler in New Brunswick. We had extremely experienced social workers. They were both ready to retire and they had seen an awful lot of life and weren’t very narrow minded, I guess.  Where in Ontario, we were mostly dealing with younger social workers, who had just moved out of protection, and working in protection services. 

So, when they arrived there was a lot of bias towards a military family. In regards to, you know, our one social worker was very clear that he felt that military families were not a healthy place for adoption.

Julie:

because of the moves?

Tamara:

No, because he felt that the military family was more likely to be rigid and authoritarian, and an over-disciplinarian type household. So, he really brought a lot of bias to the table. 

And at first, I didn't understand why I was getting so frustrated. And then I started to understand that he was bringing an awful lot of personal bias into the situation. And so, it took me a long while to figure that out. And we asked to, you know, we advocated for ourselves and said, ‘Hey, we have to change our social worker because this isn't working for us’. 

So that's something that you really need to be aware of. You may or you may not hit that bias, but it is out there that people have a perception of what a military family is. And they think it's a bunch of, you know, a military member and a number of little soldiers lined up. We both work in military family resource centers. We know that is not the case. Right? 

So, we ended up doing an awful lot of education with the organization and it was - especially going through the second time it was really frustrating. 

We didn't find any of that in New Brunswick. We didn't run into any of those issues. It was a very methodical process. We were well informed. We knew what the checklist of things we need to do was, and we just follow through. 

That wasn't to say it wasn't emotional. It was.  Sitting down and having a discussion as to what kinds of challenges the future children you may be able to adopt might have, and where is your capacity to deal with those challenges? I found it a little bit easier to have those discussions, but my husband really struggled with that.  He felt terrible about saying ‘I can't cope with a child with an intellectual disability’. ‘I can't cope with the child who may have you know, these challenges’. So, we had to go through all of those value discussions, and what we could cope with as a couple, and what we couldn't cope with - and actually go through that process and have those discussions. 

He felt it was really hard. I thought it was just smart on our behalf. We have a lot better chance of succeeding when you're entirely honest about that.  

Claudia:

When you went through the process and we're being asked all those questions, did any of your military stuff come up like the amount of times that you got posted where you got posted? How many times your husband was away? Those kinds of things?

Tamara [00:10:58]

No, we didn't really run into any of that. But we did have to ask questions - to answer questions - about have you thought about the times in which you're going to be a single parent? How will you cope with that? Where are your resources? You're constantly moving - when you move to a new a new city how do you set up your support systems? 

So, there were a lot of questions around that, which was a good process to go through because goodness knows we needed to access all of those resources every time we moved right? And set up those support systems because all families need them. So, it was it was more of a discussion of discovery, you know, and it was very logical as to why they were asking those questions.

Julie:

Discussions are like difficult to have, obviously. But as a military family, you are moving you are doing all those things over again.  As a mom of two little ones, my husband traveled a lot. I was a single parent a lot of the time like I dealt with a lot of those issues. How fortunate are you to be able to have those discussions, because how many of us don't. We just sort of go through, we live our lives, and you never actually sit down and have the discussion about how does this affect me? How does this affect you? What would we do in this scenario? Because we didn't have to do it but having that discussion, puts a little bit more on the table and maybe gives you a better basis for going forward. How do you make those decisions?

Tamara [00:12:20]:

Yeah, and it was -we welcome those discussions, right. Once we got through that initial discussion of you know, what is our what do we want our family to look like? What can we cope with? What can we not - what's realistic within a military community as well?

We knew we were going to be moving. So, you know, children who needed to keep connections to biological family members were not a great placement for our household. So, we had discussions around that. We were going to have to move so we needed to consider children who had parental separation. So, you know and all the baggage that comes with those kids although, you know, in my particular case, we were we were fairly lucky. 

We didn't know at the time how much of a challenge our first daughter was because we were new parents, right? What do we know? You know, until we adopted the second two and went, oh my goodness, but we didn't know that at the time, right? So, we just persevered, you know, unknowingly just worked our butts off to give her a secure place. 

Laura - most of her challenges was meeting- she tested us a lot because she didn't trust any grown up.  Like she had no reason to trust any grown up. She was five and she had depended on herself. And you know, so it was it was a tough road, but we didn't have a clue that it was that was hard

Claudia:

Tamara, to this day I still remember the first day you walked into the MFRC with little Laura. She just bossed her way in, and just was a part of the children's programs. So, you've done an amazing job. 

Can I ask how old were the other two when you adopted them? And I guess on the heels of that, how did they integrate into the military lifestyle, because you are already familiar with it? And if they're older was that a bit of a transition for them?

Tamara:

So, when we adopted them, they were just about two and just about three and a just a year apart. They were younger, and they had both been in foster care, although they had been in separate foster care - even though they were siblings -for most of their lives, right. 

So, they had been in a secure foster care environment for a couple of years. And so, when Ben and Sydney came into our home at the same time, that was like that was like having twins totally. Only they came walking and talking.  

So, the biggest issue was the energy it took, but they were so secure. They didn't come with any of the insecurity or the lack of trust that Laura had. So, it was more working on building those bonds and those connections as quickly as we could. So, it was more like bringing a newborn home and not sleeping and not eating properly. 

Dean McQuaig was the executive director in Ottawa when I adopted Ben and Sydney and yeah, I’d show up at board meeting sometimes in my pajamas. It was a tough go from a physical, tired perspective. Whereas Laura was much more of a mental challenge with you know, getting her settled in her place.

Claudia:

And how did Laura take to the other two?

Tamara [00:15:35]:

Well, at first, she was all gung-ho for brother and sister, and then she realized that they were a lot younger than her, and she decided that they needed to go back after two months. That wasn't happening, so she was a little bit irritated that she had no control. 

But she did help us - because Ben and Sidney came to us through separation of parental rights that they you know, they came out of an unsafe situation. We had to - we only had a weekend to choose new names so that the paperwork could go in on time. And Laura was very active in that - in the names.  She was stomping around and was very angry with it. 

Like I wanted to call Sidney Allison - and she was just horrified by that name altogether. And then finally we negotiated it down to, Laura had chosen her own middle name when she moved in with us. And she chose Elizabeth at that time. So, names were changed - she chose their middle names. And she chose Victoria and William because they were all royalty as far as she was concerned. So, I like… she had tantrums like I've never seen her have about these names. It was it was a very long, drawn-out weekend. And, you know, trying to figure out names for children you've already met was incredibly challenging, but it's something that that I really enjoyed. That was that was really interesting, for sure. 

So, I mean, there's you have a lot of fun, but yeah, you can't. You can't take yourself too seriously. That's for certain.

Julie:

As you're talking, I can't help thinking, every guest we have comes on and talks about the fact that when they talk about being a military family member, they're like, people tell them you knew what you were getting into.  And then you know, the fact that we get asked about military life and we say I've never known anything different. 

And how much is adoption the same kind of process? You really don't know what you're getting into. And this is what our life is like, you know, people say, you know, what, how do you do it? How do you cope? This is all I know, this is what my family is, and this is this is who we are?

Tamara:

Yeah, so there's a couple of things through this whole process that whether you're a military family or not that we did that I really, I would go back and do again. There was two things. 

The basic premise for our whole family was that adoption was no different than the stories that mothers tell about being in labor. That your adoption story was the way you joined your family, the same way that my mother talks about the summer I was born as being the hottest ever on record and that it was the longest most horrible labor.  And so, we treated adoption stories and how you join the family, the same as mothers talk about their labors, and tell their children that I couldn't see my feet or I couldn't you know, it was a hot summer or you know, or I gained so much weight… So, it's all of those things. We treated it exactly the same.

The other thing was that that adoption was not… it was a fact about you, but it didn't define you. And those were consistent concepts that we were very much in favor of. 

So, you know, and it's different when you when you've got younger children when you adopt them. When Sidney was about five, we're walking down the street, we saw a pregnant woman and she said, you know how you talk about growing in bellies and that kind of in your mom's belly? She said: oh, so I grew in your tummy, right? And I said no, you grew in another mommy's tummy. But then you came to live with us.  And she was mad for two days - that I had never told her that she was adopted.

And I said you know what? The kids have their framed adoption papers on their walls. We talked about adoption.  Laura - like every time they matured, they needed to reassess. So, Laura had talked at supper time - it was a normal conversation. How did this little thing not catch the fact that she was adopted too? I don't know. 

So, by the time we got to the third obviously we'd missed something. 

Julie:

How many relocations did you do with the kids? 

Tamara [00:19:32]: 

Oh well, six with Laura because she had been in six schools before she hit high school.  Three with Ben and Sidney.

Julie:

There was a lot more boxes. 

Tamara:

Yeah, but not -- we still held to the same rule and if you wanted it, it had to be unpacked in a day. So that's that was our rule actually, and it worked out really well. And my husband's a real minimalist so it kind of worked for him too. 

He would put all the beds together, the kids went on pack their own boxes and I’d unpack the kitchen, and then life was pretty much back to normal. So, we tried to do it as quickly as possible. I thought it was important. Certainly, it was important for my mental health to not have boxes sitting around the house.

Claudia [00:20:22]:

Tamara, for all of your years - you know yours and your hubby’s years - in the Canadian Armed Forces.  Have there ever been other families that you've supported or mentored with regards to adoption?  Either looking how to research the information or what it could potentially look like once the adoption is finalized.

Tamara:

So, there's been a couple of times I've certainly been passed on.  Like, as you get further away from your adoptions, the rules change, the administration changes. So, you don't really have as much to pass on in that way. 

At the beginning yeah, certainly especially when people were meeting kids for the first time. Our kids - they were kind of fresh and new people were you know, may have been going through infertility treatments or trying to figure out which adoption route they wanted to go, or what their next steps were. 

It was really easy to pass on just the structure, administration stuff. What is a home study? What does the application process look for? How long did you wait?  Were really common pieces of information that we passed on. But as we got further away, I found myself talking more to parents who had adopted, who were trying to figure out how to parent.  But there were some, like I mentioned, you know, some common things that I think we did right in the way that we talked about adoption at home and the way that we treated it.

You know, we treated our kids like they were just kids, and their behaviors were not attributed to adoption, or that they were genetically different than us. It was more so that you know, this is how you parent - and adoption is just a piece of that puzzle. So, we talked an awful lot about that - about making sure kids find that security. 

There's a very wise social worker told me that the kids that are adopted as older kids, it's kind of like a bucket with a hole in it.  And that you have to keep filling up that bucket because it leaks right, so things that kids take for granted like their security, and their feeling of safety and how they think about adoption, and how they think about their biological families. All of that information has to constantly be refilled because the bucket has a leak in it. And you just have to be aware of that and keep those positive things going as much as you can, and really underlining that sense of security, particularly when we were moving right. 

So, focusing on traditions in your house. Things like when my husband went away, the first night was always ice cream night. Creating those positive traditions in your household really helped our kids have a sense of security. And that's something that all military families can use because when you're moving, attaching your sense of home to the things you take with you - even if it is your brother and you don't want to talk to him anymore - you know attaching to those things rather than this is the street I grew up on. This is where I used to always bike this is where you know, making sure that those family those internal systems are really strong so that you can take them with you.

Claudia [00:23:20]: 

Just a quick question. Who do you think was more nervous on your first meeting? You or Laura? 

Tamara:

Oh, us! Oh my God. When we went you to learn … Laura had foster parents and they were incredibly helpful in making us realize that you know, step up, it's time for you to be parents. Social workers are helpers. You are parents. Right? So, they were really good.

But the first time we met her… well, Peter cried every 10 seconds because Laura was saying things that made him cry all the time. But she just, you know, we didn't know what to say. There is this little five-year-old …I don't even know what to call it… she was just a bundle of energy and joy, and we didn't know what to do with it really. 

And she just grabbed Peter's hand and showed him her room and all the stuff that she treasured, and that if we she was going to come live with us that she was definitely going to have to bring her treasures and went through all her treasures. 

Like she just took over, and we just sat there like we didn't know what you know. And then when she was in the house, it was unbelievable because she would go to school. And she had some gaps in the stuff that she'd learned.  Most kids learn Nursery Rhymes and songs and games. And so, every day she'd come home from school, and she'd sit at the kitchen table, and she'd say, Okay, what is this mother Goose? Right. And so, we'd go through we’d read the fairy tale. So, we do that. 

And then next day she would trump up - and school was up the hill from our house - so she'd trump up the hill. And then the next day she'd come down and she'd say, okay, what is you know, Jack and Jill what is that about? What's going on? Right? So, they would be common things that the other kids would already know about, but she didn’t. So. It was a lot of fun, I have to say so, I really had a lot of a lot of fun catching up with that. 

But Laura in particular, she didn't know how to play on her own, so we spent all of our time playing. And it's it was just an interesting adventure getting to truly understand what neglect means, and the impact it has on children. Certainly nothing to be shy - to shy away from - but it did take a lot of creative thought and figuring out how to parent at the same time with someone who can argue back.

Claudia:

Was it easier with Ben in Sydney?

Tamara [00:25:45]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Once we got through, you know, they had they had some security issues at the beginning because new family, new house, new that ... and they didn't understand they were two or three years old, right. So, there was a lot of sleepless nights. There were nightmares there were, you know, those kinds of things to get through. But far more manageable. And as bonds began to build through, you know, just everyday life, those things started to slowly disappear. 

So, I found it more understandable with Ben in Sydney who were younger. Laura was more of, you know, you had to deal with her on an intellectual level. And she was very sure of herself and hadn't had adult intervention. So, she saw herself as equal to adults. So that's where most of our challenges came from, but a lot of our fun came from that too.

Julie:

You like you were talking about, you mentioned infertility briefly. And that is a journey that my husband and I went through as well. And I find oftentimes when you're going through these types of processes of building your family in a different way, it can feel really isolating because I think a lot of people don't want to speak up. They don't want to show that share their story. It either seems too personal or there's too much baggage that goes with it. 

But I remember being on the receiving end, what an incredible gift that is when someone will sit down with you and open up and say, you know what, I totally get it. I've been there. I know what you're going through. Just the idea of feeling less alone and, and that somebody else has sort of been where you are, and they've come out the other side. So, you know, I think a lot of people dismiss what they bring to the table. They don't necessarily recognize how much value they bring just by sitting down and telling their own story. And what a difference that makes in somebody else's life.

Tamara [00:27:35]

Well, you know, we always dealt with the whole situation with a sense of humor. 

Yeah, my husband tells a lot of really inappropriate jokes that most wives would probably not tolerate, but that sense of humor got us through an awful lot. You know, like and every time you're getting introduced or somebody finds out your kids are adopted say: Oh, really? And why is that? And my husband is actually straight-faced - and Claudia will know this. He's actually said: well, my wife is barren, you know. And because you know, people just ask these most ridiculous questions. And really, I don't have… if I was if I was feeling insecure, about that he wouldn't do that. But I don't have any insecurity about that. And we still argue about well, really, am I or is it his fault?

Julie:

My husband had a daughter from his first marriage and people kept saying, well, it can't be Paul's fault. I said to Paul, I should go to the fertility clinic with a big T shirt that says you know I'm the barren one. So, people aren't looking at you funny - because clearly, it's not your fault.

Tamara:

Yeah, because there was never any consideration in my mind that it was anything but a scientific issue. Right. So, I didn't take it personally. 

And seriously, yeah, we used to get a lot of questions, a lot, a lot of questions. So, we took that opportunity to educate especially about adoption at the beginning. 

Now that did change as the kids got older around grade four and five. The other children acted a different way. Once they found out the kids were adopted, there was something about that age where their friends saw it differently, and would start conversations about well, aren't you concerned about not knowing who your biological family is? and all that dialogue, which I think is somewhat negative. So, the kids naturally - we discussed it first - they stopped sharing that about themselves around that age. And then once it got to be older teenagers, then they felt comfortable sharing it again. 

And it wasn't because they weren't comfortable with sharing they were adopted. They had no problems talking about it. It's just the way other people reacted. It just wasn't healthy for the kids to participate in that reaction. At some point, we did say yeah, as a family, maybe we'll just let you be you and don't worry about that part of your story. But before that, the kids were very comfortable with talking about it and talking about it with people, so you know.

And people's reaction to your family being adopted… we always love going to my family events because my brother sister and I are a blonde and brunette and redhead.  And my kids are blonde and brunette and redhead. So, when somebody asks, well, which one of you is the one that has adopted all your kids? And they never pick my family. Never. It's always everybody else's family, but it's never mine. So, it's kind of an interesting time in their childhood, to just be a part of a family and not have that caveat kind of added to it. So that was kind of an important piece as they were growing, to be able to respond to that. It wasn't hidden. But it wasn't something they offered freely at a certain age.

Julie [00:30:45]:

We've been talking a lot with our guests about - those of us who I don't want to date ourselves because we love the fact that this is just like a listen-only media- but some of us had been military spouses for a long time and how much things have changed since we became military spouses how things are different. What do you think are the biggest differences between when you were 21 and driving from Halifax to Victoria, to a new military spouse that's joining now and what's your best advice for them?

Tamara:

Well, it's interesting because Halifax was a blast. There was a lot of people on my husband's course we were all hanging out together. We were all young and we had a lot of fun. And then we moved to Victoria and the guys were posted to ships and they were gone like Peter. We arrived on a Friday he got on the ship and left on a Monday. We didn't even have furniture yet. At that point, we didn't have our boxes. We didn't have anything you know

That's when being away from home actually hits you, and MFRCs didn't exist. I didn't even have that building to walk into.

What did happen was there was a young woman, same age as us, had heard from her husband that I was – that we had arrived, and I was alone. And she kind of knew the apartment building. So she - the next Monday morning after the ship left - came and knocked on every door in my building to find me to say hey, you're not alone. And that was absolutely a lifesaver for me. It changed the way I thought of everything from that point on. I didn't feel isolated from a community. I didn't feel that I was there all by myself, because someone reached out and that is something that I think we lost through those middle years of us traveling and moving. But I'm starting to see the resurgence of that, and I don't know if it's because of COVID - and that families were more isolated, and they started reaching out to support each other in small ways without the intervention of the MFRC in the middle or waiting for the MFRC to do something. 

So that was something that was lovely, though COVID was incredibly challenging for families. I think it was something that we reminded ourselves of as being part of a community means doing that reach out. Especially when those little times can make such a difference. Because I think that that Wendy reaching out to me actually made my attitude towards all of the moves that follow different. So, I think she made the last 30 years of my life different - and happier because she took that first step.

Claudia [00:33:20]

It's almost like that pay it forward because I've seen you like, you know, since Gagetown. We've never been posted the same location again. But we've stayed in touch. But just even connecting with you and seeing you do that with others. Whether you're in your role at the MFRC, or just whether on your own, I've seen you always be that proactive person that would reach out and make sure that another spouse is supported. 

 So, I think that's something that continues, and we see that to this day, whether it's COVID or not, I'm not sure but it does happen quite a bit. 

Julie:

You never really know how the things that you do are going to affect other people - and what impact it's going to have on them. Because to you it might seem small, but to them it might be it might be the whole world.  Like 30 years later that you're still thinking about it - it's incredible.

Claudia:

I think I've shared this story. We were at one posting, and we lived in a row house, and we had a neighbor - and we were neighbors for about a year and a half before we got posted back again and we weren't in touch between those years. And lo and behold, we ended up here at the same base. 

And when they came back for their house hunting trip, we all went out for supper. They didn't have kids when we had left, and then they had two little ones. And you know, we got up to pay and our friends said no, we took care of the bill. This is for all the times that you loaned us your car to do groceries and stuff.  Because they never had a vehicle, they didn't have access to a vehicle, and it's just what you do for the neighbors you know. So, you just never know it was not something that we ever really thought of importance to us but definitely importance to them. 

Julie:

you talk about their time in the military or 11 postings. If you had it to do over, what are the things that you do differently?

Tamara [00:35:10]:

I may have not stayed at home and not worked for as long as I did. 

It was really hard to jump back into the workforce. We were moving so often that fighting to get a job every time. I originally started out this journey, I was a paramedic, and you know after going to Halifax and Victoria and then back to Ontario and then you know all over the place, I didn't get an opportunity to work as a paramedic. That's how I ended up teaching CPR and First Aid most of the places that we went.

I probably wouldn't have taken seven years to finish my degree. I probably would have put a little more effort in and finished it a little sooner. Because you know, we moved five times while I was doing - while I was trying to finish a degree. It was lovely to have the opportunity, but I probably would have tried to go to work sooner. I do find myself; you know I'm 58 now, and I'm behind the curve considerably when it comes to things like retirement, pension, all of those things. So had I known the long-term impact of that, I probably would have made a few different decisions along the way.

Julie:

I think that's consistent for a lot of spouses, right. Because you're moving so often you don't really get the chance to sort of build up the seniority or build up those types of things. If you move every couple of years, you went into a new community and there's not a job that's waiting for you.

Claudia:

Well, and sometimes just the if you are going through a degree program and you're posted between provinces, it was a bit of a challenge and again, aging myself back in the day when virtual wasn't so easily accessible. Right? Back in those times your online classes were few and far in between. So, it was hard to maintain a degree program if you're constantly moving between different provinces. 

Julie:

My first correspondence course we used to actually do the assignments and put them in the mail. And he would mail his comments back to me.  Like the idea that I could just hit send and they could look I could get like a comment within a day - but we were putting things in the mail. I was trying to explain that to my girls during COVID. They were horrified at the very thought of that.

Claudia:

Now you're just aging all three of us.

Tamara [00:37:15]:

I know. It's really funny because we laugh because my husband someone in the military and I'm the one that graduated from RMC.  Because with the Canadian Continuing Studies program - I could call a professor and say: we’re posted.  Can I write my exam when we get there?  

And then they my timeline for all my courses were messed up when we went to England. That was just craziness.  But RMC flowed with everything I threw at them, and they accommodated it. They accommodated my exams - and they just did a really good job. So, kudos to them in a time when correspondence programs were not very flexible. And RMC most definitely was. So, it was it was a really positive experience.

Julie:

Is there anything we haven't asked you that you'd like to talk about or mention or…?

Tamara:

You know, adoption in itself is always unique. It's always going to be different for every family. 

Make your choices upfront and stay focused on those choices. If you choose that - we made a decision that we weren't going to foster children because I would have a hard time if children were coming and going. Emotionally, I don't think I could have handled with that. 

We made the decision that we were going to adopt children within an age range between two and five. That worked out really well for us.  

Staying focused on those on those particular decisions that you make. Because this is an emotional roller coaster, and you find yourself being drained and panicked. and desperate at times. So, what you really need to do is to trust in the decisions that you make, and stay focused on what that eventual outcome needs to be. 

For example, I didn't need to have an infant that wasn't a drive that I really needed. But if it's something that you really need, then what you do is you focus on that - you do your research and you find the best pathway for you - and then stay focused on that eventual outcome so. And what will you compromise in order to get that particular thing? So those things were kind of the things that that we did well

The other thing was to let other people help you. When we adopted Ben and Sydney, we were in Ontario. The shortest time period you could possibly finalize an adoption was six months. Normally takes a year to finalize an adoption - and that's social worker visits, and checking in with the kids, and seeing how everything's going. But my husband got an opportunity to go to England to go to school for his Master's. And we needed to leave exactly six months after Ben and Sydney had moved into the house. 

So, we had a social worker in Ottawa. And I think she must have chased the judge around or something. But we got on an airplane and our adoption papers were still wet. They had different names on the adoption papers than they had on the green passports that we were leaving the country.  

And it was just a total -- everyone worked to help us out to make sure we were able to make that move - from the court system to the social workers, to CAS, to the Chain of Command. Everybody just jumped in and helped us achieve what was going to be a really interesting adventure: to adopt kids in December and to the UK the following July.  So, it was it was definitely an interesting adventure. So yeah, let people help you. 

Claudia:

I really appreciate you sharing such personal stories. And you know, sometimes it's not always an easy thing to do. So, thanks for sharing that with us on our podcast. And you know, I just really appreciate you and everything that you bring to the table - and what you do at the Trenton MFRC as well. So, thank you for all of that. It's really enjoyable working with you even though we're not in the same location.

Tamara:

We get to we still get to spend a lot of time together.

Claudia:

We do.  Yes, we do.

Julie:

Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. If you have an interesting story that you would like to share with the rest of our military family community. Please do not hesitate to give us a call we would love to hear from you. Send us an email we can chat and see what we can do to help you share your story with other military families. Thanks