Our Conversation with the Cartwrights

This month we are speaking with another couple – Norma and Tom Cartwright - about their lives as a Canadian Military family.  Having weathered eight postings and numerous deployments, our guests have some great stories and important lessons to share. 

About our Guests 

Norma Cartwright has been a military spouse for almost 35 years. She grew up on a farm in Southern Manitoba, and met Tom while he was posted to Shilo in 1986. They married in 1988 and were posted to CFB Lahr Germany in 1989, then to Chatham in 1992. Norma was a stay at home mom until her daughters started school then started work at a cleaning jobs. In 2005, she went back to college and earned a certificate in Office Administration. Norma and Tom live in Petawawa, where Tom retired from military in 2018. They love camping, and going to the beach and events with their friends. Norma also loves to travel, read and bake!

Tom Cartwright was born in Alert Bay BC, and grew up in Prince George. He graduated in 1985 and joined the CF in October of that year. His first posting was to 3 RCHA in Shilo, Manitoba where he met Norma. He has been posted to 4 AD Regt in Lahr Germany then to Chatham/Gagetown; and to 18 AD Regt in Lethbridge Alberta. He completed a tour to Bosnia in 2000 before remustering to AVN Tech. He was posted to 408 THS in Edmonton AB from 2002 to 2012, and complete two more tours in Bosnia and four in Afghanistan. In 2012 he was posted to 450 THS in Petawawa,  until retiring in 2018. He currently works as a contractor in support of the RCAF at 450 THS.

If you have ideas for an episode, we would love to hear them.  You can reach us at Podcast.Feedback@PetawawaMFRC.com

Transcript

Intro:

Welcome to Military Family Life, the podcast for Canadian military family members, by military family members. Do you ever wish you had a guidebook or a mentor to help you with some of the challenges you're facing as part of the military family? Each episode we're going to bring you the stories of people who have been there. They're going to share the lessons that they've learned along the way to help you live your best Military Family Life.

Julie [00:00:28]:

Hi, and welcome to another edition of Military Family Life. My name is Julie Hollinger. 

Once again, this month, we have asked a couple to join us. We really liked the idea of having the perspective of what military family life is like for both sides of a couple for the military family member and for their spouse. 

Today, we are talking to Norma Cartwright and Tom Cartwright. Norma Cartwright has been a military spouse for almost 35 years. She grew up in a farm in southern Manitoba, and she met her future husband, Tom, when he was posted to Shiloh in 1986. They married in 1988 and were posted the CFB Lahr in 1989. Norma was a stay-at-home mom until her two daughters started school, she began doing some housecleaning jobs until 2005. And then she returned to college and did a certificate in office administration. 

Norma and Tom were posted eight times to locations including: Chatham, Gagetown, Lethbridge, Alberta, just to name a few. During her husband's numerous tours to Bosnia and Afghanistan, Norma worked full time and raised her teenage daughters. Tom and Norma now live in Petawawa, where Tom retired from the military in 2017. They love camping, going to the beach and heading to events with the friends they have made here. Norma also loves to travel, bake, and read. 

Tom Cartwright was born in Alert Bay, British Columbia, and he grew up in Prince George. He graduated in 1985 and joined the Canadian Forces in October of that year. His first posting was to 3 RCHA in Shiloh, Manitoba where he met Norma. Throughout his career he was posted to 4 Air Defense regiment in Lahr, and then in Chatham, Gagetown. He was then posted to 18 Air Defense regiment in Lethbridge, Alberta. He completed tour in Bosnia in 2000, before remustering to become an AVN tech. He was then posted to 408 tactical Helicopter Squadron in Edmonton and completed two more tours in Bosnia and four in Afghanistan before moving to 450 tactical Helicopter Squadron in Petawawa, until he retired in October of 2018. He currently works as a contractor in support of the RCAF at 450. And we really hope you enjoyed this conversation that my co-host, Claudia Beswick, and I had with Tom and Norma Cartwright.

Julie [00:02:34]:

Hi, thanks for joining us, Norma, and Tom. It is great once again to have a couple here to tell their story. Claudia and I frequently talk about the fact that we tell our stories, and we give our background and it's always coming from our perspective without our significant other having a chance to give their- their yay or nay, maybe we'll do that sometime in the future. But in your case, we'll be able to do it all at once. So, Norma, why don't I start with you? Can you tell me a little bit of yourself - Introduce yourself? And what is your connection to military? 

Norma [00:03:01]:

Hello, everyone. I'm Norma Cartwright and I have been a military wife since 1988. We met in 1986, at a bar and I actually got stood up by somebody. So, I went over to a friend's table, which was actually Tony Beswick’s and met Tom and we've been together ever since. 

Julie:

So, Claudia's husband is the reason that you guys are together? 

Norma: 

Yeah. 

Claudia: 

So, I'm going to caveat this by saying that some stories- honey, I have no control over if they come out.

Julie: 

Tom, why don’t you introduce yourself and what is your connection to the military?

Tom [00:03:35]:

Hi, my name is Tom. I joined the military right out of high school -1985, did that wonderful thing in Cornwallis called basic training - Which- But everybody calls me a dinosaur because nobody knows where Cornwallis is anymore. Then, I was posted to Shiloh to U battery, 3 RCHA and one cold and, stormy night I guess it was, I- I met Norma and we've been together ever since.

Julie: 

So, whoever it was that you were meant to meet, it's their loss. 

Norma: 

Yeah. 

Tom: 

My gain their loss.

Julie:

So, was Shiloh your first posting, Tom?

Tom:

Uh- Yeah. It’s- Yup. 

Julie: 

Did you have any family there or was this all brand new to you? 

Tom [00:04:29]:

It's all brand new -18 years old, leaving home- Cornwallis, there’s an experience in the wintertime, I’ll have you know. Another experience getting to Shiloh in the middle of February - Battle school? 3 RCHA and then off to the world. 

Julie:

So, for our younger listeners, before St. Jean was there, there was Cornwallis. So, when you joined basic, you went to Cornwallis, and that is I believe in Nova Scotia, is it not?

Tom: 

Yup. 

Julie: 

And that's where people went and did their initial basic training before they were sent out into the world. 

Claudia:

Ladies and gentlemen, how did you ever know that this was going to be a geography lesson as well? 

Julie:

My husband also talks about Cornwallis and people look like him like “How old are you?”

Tom:

I get that every day.

Julie:

It's amazing what dates you- what expressions and what- what things date you. Why were you in Shiloh, Norma?

Norma:

I actually grew up just outside of Brandon on a farm and as soon as I hit 18, and graduated I moved to Brandon to go to school. And of course, you know- being on the farm for 18 years - I went crazy. And- Uh- Visited the local establishments once in a while.

Julie [00:05:27]:

Now had you had any exposure to military culture, military life before meeting Tom? 

Norma:

Technically no. But my dad was military for 26 years, but he retired in 1971. And I was born in 1967. So, I was still a toddler when he retired, and we moved to the farm. 

Julie:

Now military life, was it a shock to you? 

Norma:

Yes. Like, I knew what I was getting into – Or so my mother told me. 

Julie: 

It is a universal theme on this show that nobody likes the expression “You knew what you were signing up for.”Because none of us could have ever known. 

Norma:

No, you don't, because you don't know the career your husband or spouse is going to take. If he's a clerk. He's got a desk job, right? - Comes home every night. Unlike my husband, who was artillery for many years and gone most of the time. So, it- it was an adjustment. You have to be independent. You have to learn how to do things on your own. Fix bikes, you know, get the bills paid, find a job and - and try and do it while you're looking after kids. 

Julie:

Now, how long did your career keep you in Shiloh, Tom?

Tom:

We were there, technically - I gotta think now-  ’86 to ‘89 - Right, Claudia? ‘89 is when we left?

Claudia:

 ’89 is when we left for Germany. Yup.

Julie:

Oh, you all left together? 

Tom: 

Yeah. Yup.

Claudia: 

Oh, yes. The whole unit, pretty much- If they weren't going to Germany, they were off to Chatham, New Brunswick. So - but we were - we were the lucky ones. Yeah?

Tom: 

Yeah. 

Julie [00:06:56]: 

So, you went to Germany - a little far from home. 

Tom:

Yeah. 

Julie: 

Tom, did you - was it - do you come from a military family or were you blazing new trails joining the military and this was unknown to you?

Tom: 

Blazing new trails, trudging through the bush - whacking away not having a clue what I was doing.

Claudia:

But enjoying every minute of it, because if you could hear these guys talking - outside of work, they loved every last little bit of army life that - that they had all the training and field work and all that kind of stuff and as much as they'd like to talk about how cold winter was - they were much younger then and they had some of the gear so, they had some fun mixed in there. 

Tom: 

There was adventures – there was many adventures. 

Claudia: 

Adventures. Yes. 

Tom: 

Some we will never speak of again. 

Julie: 

So how many posts - how many postings did you guys do throughout - throughout your career?

Tom:

Oh jeez - Shiloh, Germany, Chatham, Gagetown, Lethbridge, Edmonton. Petawawa. Yeah.

Julie:

That is eight. That is a lot.

Tom: 

Eight, yeah. 

Julie: 

Now do you - When you think about your life - when you tell stories, do you like figure out what year it was or when that happened based on where you were living at the time?

Norma: 

Yes! Yes!

Julie:

There were – I know a lot of military families are like “okay, so we would have been in Edmonton then, so that would have been this year”

Claudia [00:08:15]:

The year that we got posted to Germany was the year that my son was born. That was an easy one to remember.

Tom:

Oh yeah! 

Julie: 

So, your postings are a benchmark for everything else?

Tom:

Oh yeah, it's like stories come up and people say, “What were you – what -what year was that?” And I gotta - I gotta remember, “Okay, where was I? What was I doing?” And then yeah, okay. We go from there. 

Julie: 

Do you have a favorite posting?

Tom: 

[Sighs]

Julie:

I guess it's different sort of, like you know, there's some professional postings – it’s sometimes you know - it's a posting because you liked the job. But in terms of the communities did you have favorites of places that you’ve lived, that you liked the most?

Tom:

Uh- I liked Lethbridge because it was - it was a great community. Busy- it was never home. Because we're farmed out to everybody. Then, well 11 years in Edmonton but still, again, super busy. That's where the kids grew up. That's where they cut their teeth on - on their life as it were. And while that's where Norma turned from a country girl into a city girl – Now, I can't get her into the country. But, yeah, I’m going to say, Edmonton and Lethbridge were probably my favorite postings.

Julie:

Norma?

Norma:

Yeah, actually, I’d probably have the say the same. When - when I went out to Lethbridge, we were much closer to family. Our families were in Alberta and BC so it was much easier to get home and I met some really good, close friends and had good relationships with people there. And then of course, moving to Edmonton. Yes, I became a city girl. Woo! My sports just went into high gear.

Julie [00:09:47]:

Now by my count you posted eight times, which means eight times a truck pulled up and you put all of your belongings into a truck and moved to a new community and started over somewhere else. You are by now, I would say an expert - I would put you in that category once you get to that many postings. What do you learn along the way? With every posting, does it get easier? Does it get harder? Does it depend on the circumstance?

Norma:

Oh, yes, it gets much easier, I find. Every posting, we downsized, and you learn how things you don't need - You don't need, right? I still, like even now living in this apartment, every day I'll find something it’s like “do I really need this? No”and it gets to the Value Village. So yeah, and people asked me, “oh, what do I do I’m moving” like, “calm down pack away the stuff you don't need right now so, it'll make it easier when the time comes to pack.” I’ve- I found it much easier now.

Claudia:

Norma, tell us about what that first pack was like less the children.

Norma:

Oh.

Claudia:

You know? Because you - when you - when you are being loaded up and they're packing, and you have you know kids in tow and everything that they bring with you. Did you feel that there was a sense of -not loss but something missing? That first pack when you moved and your minus one child or minus two children. It's not quite the same. 

Norma: 

Well, I never had a posting really – well, I guess this last one would have been our posting with - without kids. Kind of - basically they did come with us because they didn't want to stay in Edmonton, and I didn't want them too either. But six months later, we drove them back to Alberta, because they didn't like it here. When one started school and the other one just wanted to find her way in Alberta. So, that was tough - really tough. Saying goodbye and not knowing when I'll see them again, but they were 20 and 18. So, it's not like they were little kids. But I know every time we moved when they were little, it was sad because they were losing friends - I was losing friends until Facebook and the Internet kind of started which is great now because I keep in touch with everybody, and they can keep in touch with their old school friends too.

Claudia [00:12:08]: 

I remember the year we left Wainwright, because we found out we were posted back to Gagetown in February, and we were slated to leave in June and in May my daughter who just graduated said “Yeah, I'm not coming back with you.”

So, there you are posted, you know two or three provinces away and it's not a quick drive to go back if they need help or a cheap plane ticket.

Norma:

No.

Claudia: 

So, definitely can understand how you - you feel in those moments. But you know, I'll tell you the one thing that military life has taught me for my children- is that they're doing really well standing on their own two feet. They are very independent and getting themselves situated. 

Norma:

Yeah, yeah. Oh, for sure. It took Rebecca a little longer. And then of course Rebecca, our Robin, she – she joined the military. Just, all of a sudden one day she came to us and said, “I'm joining the military”. I was like “Wha- What?”

Claudia:

So, Tom, how does that feel, knowing that your daughter's following in your footsteps? Because she's Air Force as well.

Tom:

Well, that's the thing. So, when she came, she goes out to Calgary. Tries to school thing, that didn’t work. She comes back, gets a couple of jobs – works at Tim Hortons for a bit, works in the mall for a bit. And then she decides she's going to join the military. No coaxing, no suggestions, no pushing from either one of us. Just like Norma says. One day “I'm joining the military.” Okay. Well. “Have you ever thought about what you're going to do?”

And she goes, “Oh, well, you know, not really.”  Then I started asking her questions. 

“Do you like camping?”

“Not really.” So, the combat arms are out.

“Do you like administration?”

“Oh, no, not really” So, asking a bunch of questions. So, then she decided on Air Force trades. She eventually got aviation technician, so, which is good. Kind of warms my - warms my heart a little bit that she's - she's doing that. Yet, where she is - she used to constantly get bugged about being my kid, because you know? They all know me. So, it's - it's kind of funny and weird in a way.

Julie [00:14:10]:

Now, Norma, you have been a military partner or military spouse for all of these years. You know what life is like - you know when you are in a family with a - with a CAF member. How's it changed when you are the mother of a CAF member?

Norma:

Yeah- You know- I'm gonna say the worrying is still the same, because it's either it was my husband, or now my daughter and I worried the same. Because she actually did a tour in Iraq last year. So, she's - she was gone for seven months. But luckily with technology now, we chatted almost every day, when- when we could and so it was nice to keep in touch.

Julie:

Claudia and I always talk about, and we date ourselves, but what it was like to do tours and absences when you had letters.

Norma:

Yeah,

Julie:

And occasional phone calls and - and well how life is so different now that you have an opportunity to really stay in contact in a very different way. 

Norma:

Oh, definitely different. Like when Tom and I first met together, it was letters, and it took a while maybe a phone call when he first went overseas. We got one 30-minute phone call a week; I think. 

Tom:

That was - I was in Bosnia, so like – in 2000. So, in 22 years, everything has changed. There was one 30-minute phone call a week and I think it was 15 minutes of email slash internet time, a day; I think it was. And then - you know - as the years progressed - get to go first trip to Afghanistan, it was 30-minute - 30-minute computer time or 30 minutes of phone time. And then at the end of it all, had a laptop in my bed space and all the free internet that I could do and we can video chat like this or just whatever internet messaging service we were using, ass long as we want it. 

Claudia: 

And I mean - think about those - going back to the Shiloh days where you guys often were in Wainwright - You know, in the wintertime, and the spouses would get together with the kids and we would kind of be doing whatever we're doing. But then on Sunday afternoon, everybody goes home because that was almost the obligatory phone call that came in because they had to share the phone booth and they all had to take turns phoning home. So, communication when a member is away whether it’s deployment or exercise is - has really improved a lot over the years and again like Julie says we're just aging ourselves now, but - but there you have it. Such is life.

Tom [00:16:45]:

I remember Wainwright, when they would set up the phones, on posts or whatever. And you're standing outside for your - and you dial in to the base operator in Shiloh and say, “I'd like an outside line.”

And then- then you got like, 15 minutes to talk to whoever. 

Julie: 

And then would it just drop?

Claudia:

Sometimes. 

Tom:

No, they would - sometimes it would drop or sometimes the - the operator would plug in and say “okay, you've been talking a little long. Time to – time to hang up.”

Sometimes they would even be listening in because you could here the click.

Julie:

Now you said you have two daughters. How do you think life as military kids affected them? And I mean - and then - for the good and for the bad? Because I think you know, we've talked to so many people who've talked about how their kids have thrived and done a lot of things because their experiences as military kids. How do you think it changed them being military kids? 

Tom:

So, our two girls are - are very resilient, very independent and I think being military kids, it - it taught them that because of what they went through. They grew up in the hardest times, I'm going to say of recent CAF history. So, it - it taught them to be a lot more independent, a lot more resilient. 

Our - our youngest, she joined the military, so that kind of guided her way I think. But our oldest she's not a fan of the military lifestyle just because of the other experiences and she didn't like me being away so much in those times, 2006 to 2011. She didn't like those five years at all.

Norma:

So - so just to interrupt there - a little story. So, when Rebecca was born, I had a C section. and I was put out. So, Tom was the first one to hold her and they created a bond. And when Robin was born, I had a C section, but I was awake, so I was able to hold Robin And that created a bond. So, growing up, Rebecca was very close to her dad, and when he was gone - it upset her quite a lot. So yeah, it really hit Rebecca especially when Tom was- was overseas – on tours. It affected her schoolwork, it affected her- her mental health, I'm going to say. And I tried to get help for her but she was stubborn like her father.

Claudia: 

That’s that bond again! 

Norma: 

That’s the bond again! Yeah. But she is finally getting help now. So – which is good.

Julie [00:19:18]:

Now, you - you talk about the fact – those 8 moves - when she decided to go back to Alberta on her own – She is clearly a girl who knows how to make friends –

Tom & Norma:

Oh yeah! 

Julie: 

And how to start a new place, I mean, those are skills that you- you sort of learn and- and I know you Norma and have met you on a number of occasions and you are someone who is quickly able to make friends - to introduce yourself in a room. Did you think - do you think that - Were you always like that or did you just - did that come with the fact that you started over, eight times – making friends?

Tom:

Oh, she’s - She's always been like that.

Norma:

I was very shy, I was shy growing up. 

Tom:

Not when I met you! 

Claudia: 

Norma was shy! I’ll give her that, but Norma was always there when you needed her and I can say that from firsthand experience like right down to um - I needed childcare- she would be there in a heartbeat. Because, we had our kids before Tom and Norma had theirs and also – you know – When you pick up the phone and say “Hey what are you guys doing tomorrow, can you meet us down at City Hall?”

And why- why did we do that? Can you guys remember why? 

Tom:

Oh, yeah.

Claudia:

Because that's when Tony and I got married. Like “we need two people to stand up”.

Tom:

“We- we need we need two people to stand up.” It was cold that day too.

Julie:

The next day? Like “we need people to stand up, tomorrow”?

Claudia:

Pretty much. Yeah. 

Julie:

Good thing y'all didn't have plans, eh? 

Claudia:

Yeah!

Tom: 

It was- it was Christmas! So- 

Claudia:

It was the first day of block leave so, there you go. No, but Norma has always been there. She's always been there - like once you’re her friend you’re her friend for life and even for us when Tom got out of the army life and the artillery and went Air Force - We didn't see you guys for years, until actually - we relocated here in Petawawa. That's the first time that we physically saw each other. I do remember, Norma, you and I went out for supper when I had a deployment conference in Edmonton, when you guys were there. We had gone out for supper with the girls at one point. But really, we didn't reconnect after you guys left Chatham - we didn't reconnect until the posting here in Petawawa. And it's almost like many years have passed, but that friendship is still there, right? Like it's - I think that's the one thing with you Norma, is you always are so personable and always there for your friends. So, you may be shy, but a darn good friend for military spouses, for sure.

Norma [00:21:33]:

And I think the military made that for me, right? Moving. I had to make new friends, or I'd go crazy. I became such a social person; I couldn't just sit in my house, and I had to go out and eat. So, even when we moved here, I didn't know anybody for the first six, eight months, I guess. And I was going crazy. It's like, “I hate this place”. 

But then I finally met another spouse, and we went out for coffee, and I met her friends, and you know, I'm still with them. And that was 10 years ago. You have to!

Julie:

Is Petawawa the longest you've lived anywhere as a- as a married couple?

Norma:

Edmonton was 11. 

Julie:

Okay. You're almost there. 

Norma:

Yeah. 

Julie:

So, tell me about Germany.

Tom:

Best three – best 3 year weekend I ever had! 

Norma:

That was our honeymoon. 

Claudia: 

It was - Germany was beautiful. It was you know - when you talk about what's your best posting? Germany for me was the most educational because you could do things you could visit, you could - you know - go in a different country, 30 minutes down the road. 

Norma:

The history of Germany that you learn, the places you could go, even though Tom was gone a lot. We were able to do so much in just a little - like a day trip to Switzerland. “You went to Switzerland for the day?” It's like “yeah!”

Claudia [00:23:00]:

Switzerland for the day - chocolate factory for the day - Like there was so many things that you could see and do together as a family or just with the spouses. You know, there was a lot of things. So for me, Germany was my most fun time. Plus, my kids were younger, and we did a lot of family things there too. So –

Tom:

Other than the working aspect of it all, which was - which we had fun doing, because that's what we did. But yeah, just going around the countryside going on trips, either as just your family or going with other people, whatever.

Julie:

So, for fear of aging myself, I just want to add a little bit of context. So, when you guys were in Germany, long distance, cost a lot of money.

Tom:

Ooh yeah!

Julie:

Because I think a lot of people think it's a dream posting, you got to go to Europe.

Tom: 

Yup, 

Julie:

But when you pick up and go to Europe, you didn't have the freedom, Norma, to pick up the phone and call your mom every day. You didn't have the freedom to sort of - When you went to Europe, you guys all went as a group but by the same token, you were kind of leaving stuff behind. How do you make that adjustment when, you know, all of your extended family is back home and they're not just like a quick phone call or a quick - but it costs a good chunk of change to call back to Canada?

Norma:

Oh!

Tom:

Oh, it did! So, Claudia, remember on the phones, they had them little counters. 

Claudia:

You could see it tick by. 

Tom:

We would phone Claudia or whoever. And it would just “click click” [slowly] but Norma would phone Canada and talk to her parents “click click click click click click” [fast] And that's all money, its like - we had some pretty big phone bills. 

Claudia:

Yeah. 

Tom: 

Price you got to pay for keeping in touch with people at that time.

Norma:

And- And we had parents - we had relatives that came over to visit when my first daughter was born. So, that was nice. Yeah, we just - just learned to live there while we were there.

Claudia:

You just do what you got to do. And I think that speaks to the volumes of how the communication has changed, right? Like from the early years of being in the CAF and dealing with separation and - and everything that work is, not being consistent. But now, I mean, back then we didn't have cell phones. We didn't have text messaging. We didn't even have computers in the house.

Tom & Norma:

Yeah. 

Claudia:

I sound ancient, but there you go. That's the fact. Norma, I have a question for you. And it may not have made a difference for you or not, but you have had the experience of being a military spouse for someone who deployed while being Army and also deployed while being Air Force. Did you notice the difference between the two?

Norma [00:25:30]:

I did, very much. In the - the rear party aspect of it. In the army, they were always calling “Do you need help?” because I had little kids then, which was so great, right? And then once he went to Air Force, and we moved to Edmonton, and he – he did four, five tours? I hardly heard from the rear party, at all. They just thought “Yeah, fend for yourself” I guess. Kind of thing.

And luckily, I had a group of friends who I could count on to - you know -shovel the driveway if I needed too, or - or cut the grass or look after my kids if something happened. So yeah, in that respect, yes, there was a big difference. But the MFRC was finally taking shape too when we were in Edmonton. And it helped a lot. I was able to go there for information, they did a Christmas video with Tom when he was overseas once, that was great. The girls loved it. Because we had just received - I think we just got computers when we were Lethbridge? So, it was great.

Claudia:

It's true. We didn't - we didn't have MFRC’s when our kids were young, and they were -we mostly relied on - on the rear party. So that is definitely something else that- that has changed.

Julie:

You guys, people are going to be listening to this and like wondering “how old are these people?” Maybe we should – maybe we should just put a picture up so they can sort of see. “Oh no, it really wasn't that long ago”.

Claudia:

True! 

Norma:

I'm not - I'm not - I'm not a grandma yet. So-

Claudia [00:27:05]:

But you know, the internet and communication has changed so quickly, right? For everybody. And - and probably even most - more so in the last three years because - or the last two years because of COVID, right?

Like everything that we're doing is more virtual and online and connecting seems easier, more easier now than it was ever before. And remember even when computers first came out, it was very costly to have one in your home. It wasn't something that was common, right? No. If we were - when we were in Germany, it wasn't everyone that had a phone in their house because it was quite expensive but if you were in Canada at the same time people did have a phone. It was also a different lifestyle there than there was in Canada. You know, like Canada, you go shopping. You do all of your shopping on your weekends for the most part, right? Well, in Germany, the shops were closed by noon on Saturday and Sunday. So, everything was pretty much done throughout the week. So, you have to learn when you're in these different places what, you know, what your day to day is like, and - and sometimes you had to do that on your own.

Julie:

My husband was in Germany before we got married. He talks about boxes of milk? I’m like, “What are you talking about?”

Claudia:

That's not in the fridge. It's on the counter.

Julie:

Okay, so that is a thing. It's not just him. Okay. 

Claudia:

It's a thing. Yep.

Norma:

Germany was very relaxed, which I loved - just laid back atmosphere. 

Tom:

That’s right!

Norma: 

The Sunday you couldn't do anything at all except spend time with your family.

Julie:

What an incredible opportunity for your kids to be able to see a different part of the world and to live in a different places.

Norma:

Oh, definitely.

Julie:

And to have that adventure.  

Norma:

Definitely! Like, when Tom was in Afghanistan, one of his tours, we actually took the girls for three weeks in September and we went over there. And we went to England first and then we took a trip the four of us to Majorca, Spain, and then back to Liverpool. And then we visited York, took a train to York and then we visited all around and just - Just the history that they saw was well worth taking them out of school for three weeks. And - and they did homework when- when they could. I thought it was - it was better than staying at home. And - and that was the time Tom to get his leave too so-. 

Julie [00:29:10]:

And- and it's not just the history, but it's also the memories, right? The memories of that family time and having undivided mom and dad attention and being able to see things. And I think some of our greatest memories as a family are the times that, you know, after my husband traveled, we were able to come back together again and sort of reconnect and have that -sort of -undivided time as a family again. 

Norma:

Oh, yeah.

Claudia:

Tom, how was it for you when, like, hearing all the stuff obviously, you know what Norma went through with the girls when you were deployed? How was it for you, from the other end of things as a military member being deployed?

Tom:

It was - I got - I got to say, at times when there was downtime, and I wasn't crazy busy - it was tough because my mind would always switch “I wonder how the kids are doing, I wonder how Norma's doing, I wonder how things are doing”. When the kids were having moments - Let's call them moments - I would - and I didn't know that they were having moments. 

I would phone and Norma would answer the phone. “Oh, hi, how are you?”

And she goes, “talk to your children.”

“Oh boy here we go”

So, there was those times and then – and then there was great times when you know, I’d get on the phone with the kids and they would just be all excited, telling me “Oh, this is what we did. And that's what we did. What are you doing?” 

You know? I’d tell them “Okay.It's hot and sunny day doesn't really change. It's hot and sunny”

And they're just telling me all about their days and that. And those would be the great times - When no matter what I was feeling, they would just make me feel better, knowing that they were doing whatever they're doing and having a good time - Letting me know what their days like. 

Julie:

As a spouse that was at home, there was nothing more than to hear that you were hot and sunny when I had been out shoveling that driveway of like three feet of snow. And like, you know, coming in and still like half frozen. “It’s just so hot here”

“Okay, like you need to stop with that complaint because you are not getting a lot of sympathy out of me.”

Tom:

Yeah - no, I wasn't I wasn't getting any sympathy at all.

Julie:

The other thing that you said that made me laugh - My husband would always know when it was a bad day when I stopped referring to them as “My girls” and the became “Your children.”

Tom:

Yeah. Exactly. I knew - I knew something was up when it was “talk to your children”. 

Norma:

Yeah, yeah! That’s right!

Tom:

“What have they done now?”

Julie [00:31:20]:

Now, do you – do you think your daughters' idea of those years changed once she became someone who was on a tour? I think she probably looks at it differently when she realizes that there's also challenges for the person who's away - that CAF member who's calling back, like it's not as easy as - you know - Yes, you were gone, but you were also gone, right?

Tom:

It gave - I think it gave - Me being away and then talking to her as she was a kid. And then her going away and calling back. I think that experience of when she was a kid kind of prepared her - a little bit better - for when she went away.

Julie:

And I think she - when she called back - I guess - she always knew that there would be someone who got it. 

Tom:

Oh yeah, Yup. Yeah, it was – Mom gets – We start talking away – they start talking about, you know girl things and Mommy Daughter things. Then, all of a sudden the conversation, inexplicably, always turns towards work.

And then Norma’s sitting - she’s that person sitting on the outside, “Okay, what do I do now? Because they're talking shop and it’s boring.”

Julie:

It’s a different level of connection. 

Tom:

It is. Robin and I have a common frame of reference for some conversations, things like – that are work related, but then her and Mom have, I think, better conversations because it takes Robin away - Out of that work environment. Which is what – really, honestly - is good. I sit and talk with all my friends, right now. And what do we talk about? We talk about fishing. We talk about work, we talk about more work. We talk about this, but it always somehow rolls back into a work aspect common frame of reference - common topics, right?

Julie:

I think I’ve been married to a military man long enough to know that if you give him more than three minutes, it's going to come back to work. If you see somebody else in the military, there is no way we are not going down that road.

Tom:

See? See Honey, it’s just not me! Its just not me! 

Julie:

There’s no way we're not going down that road. And - and even if they've never been in the same place -within five minutes, they will find at least three common people that they know. If you've been in the military long enough, you can find those links! It’s a small - small world. 

Tom: 

Yup. 

Claudia:

You know, I think what would be – perhaps - a good idea for a future episode, Julie, is getting the perspective of military life and deployment from the - from the kids themselves. Right? Like we sometimes have our perception of how these deployments went and you know, there are - the kids’ good days, bad days and what they're struggling but it's our perception. It’d be curious to turn those questions around and say, “how were you feeling?” and “Was it actually the way we thought it was for you?”  You know, I think sometimes that comes out a little bit different.

Listen, I have question for the both of you. And, Tom, you've gotten out of the forces now. You're - you're a veteran. You're on Civy street. What was it like for you taking off that uniform? 

Tom:

It was –

Claudia: 

And I don't mean literally, I mean figuratively. 

Tom [00:34:25]:

Well, literally it was - it was easy, figuratively it was probably the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. So, you - you get – you’re clearing out - you're going through all your clearing out processes. It doesn't - There's several stages of where it actually hits you. But when it was that day, to go to base supply, and turn in all my kit - that was - that was like a huge, huge weight off my shoulders. And I don't know why because it was just so… What’s the word - Freedom inducing. Right?

I just turned in 33 years in my life. “Here you go have fun, sort that out” 

Right? and he ensures, it's all folded up and put neatly on the counter and the supply tech is ticking it all off. If they have it in their system. But it was just - Wow. “I can't believe I just did this. There's - there's my whole entire adult life gone, sitting on the counter.” 

Right and I walked - walked out of base supply and I was like - I felt a little lighter and yet at the same time, “what have I just done?”

And that was - that was it that was the final thing.

Norma: 

And it wasn't it was planned.

Tom: 

It was planned, I had an appointment!

Norma:

Well, you got – No, no - you got offered a job. 

Tom:

Oh yeah, I got offered the job. Probably the hardest thing that I did though, was sign my intent to release memo and hand it to my boss. That was the hardest thing. Again, I asked myself, “What in the heck did I just do?” 

The military is all I'd ever known right from - well - my 18th birthday because I turned 18 in Cornwallis.

Claudia:

Do you think that your transition to post military life got smoother as you went along? Was there any rough periods? You know, like sometimes when people put in their release and there is that sense of relief, right? Whatever. 30 years done. 35 years done. Moving on to the next thing, but then sometimes there's a hiccup, right? Like, it's almost like that glory period of “I'm done with that, but now what?”

You know, because a lot of people we talked to also talk about the military being their family, that extended family and there's a sense that a piece of that family connection is missing because you're not doing it every day. You're not connecting with the same people every day. Did you feel any of that? Was there any challenges that you had along the way trying to resettle into civilian life? 

Tom [00:36:55]: 

Not really because I was lucky in the fact that the job that I currently have - that I was offered is still working for the same organization that I was - that I was with when I was wearing the uniform. So, I was also lucky in the fact that I kind of had a three-month gap where I got to – I’ll call it de-stress. So, I didn't really sit around. I was doing things. I was de-stressing. I was being active, sorting out what I want to be when I grow up. 

Claudia:

Norma, what about you? How was it - How was it for you transitioning out of - from the family perspective for - for Tom?

Norma:

Oh,

Claudia:

- Leaving the military.

Norma:

It was - it was such a weight off my shoulder and yay, no more green!

Claudia:

Was that a part of your reducing things that you don't need in the house? 

Norma: 

Exactly! 

Claudia:

The downsizing?

Norma:

Yeah! 

Julie: 

I was trying to think if my husband returned all of his kit, what part of my basement am I going to get back?

Tom:

Probably all of it. 

Claudia:

Tom, where do you have all of your - Where do you have all of your plaques? You know all of your - do have a “love me” wall in your apartment or?

Tom [00:38:10]:

I'm currently sitting in our spare room which is - I guess you could call it my “I love me” room. They got all the plaques and pictures and stuff up on the wall scenes right behind me.

So, I have stuff. I have stuff up on the walls. I have stuff on shelves. I have stuff that Norma doesn't want me to have but that's not here.

Claudia:

I was gonna ask - I was gonna ask, did all of the stuff that's in there make Norma’s list of “Yes. You can keep it.”?

Tom:

Everything that is in the house. Yes.

I – I have a storage unit that I have stuff that I said, “Oh, no, you know what? I think I could probably use this.” And I have. 

Julie:

Did you guys live in PMQ’s a lot when you were in the military? 

Norma:

For like 80% of it, I'd say. 

Julie:

So, the military becomes like a big part of your life and like you live on base. This is your life - all of a sudden sort of transitioning out. It's like - did you find it tough to sort of meet people in the civilian world? If you got to other military spouses, they might sort of get, you know, “Okay. You know, she's just posted in - we're going to look after our own.” 

Is it harder to make a network in a community when you don't have that sort of common background? 

Tom:

I'm going to say yes and no. So, when we were living in Edmonton big military base there. However, Edmonton - the city of Edmonton, the common resident of Edmonton wasn't really aware - for whatever reason - that the military was there. The base is just north of the city. But if you go to the city – “we have military here in Edmonton?”.

I kid you not that was a thing. So, when - when we were there, I had my thing. I had all the military guys that I hung out with and everything like that. Norma was in - got into playing mixed slowpitch she joined a team - a civilian team - no military people in it whatsoever. Didn't even - didn't even care about military things. And then they needed more players. She convinced me to go play and that was probably in our third or fourth year of living in Edmonton. And then after that, by the time we left, I think that we had more civilian friends then we actually hung out with military people. And of course, other guys that released and retired, still - still hung out with them in Edmonton. 

But after a while, it just got to be – got easy making friends outside of the military community. It just all depended on what you did outside of that.

Julie [00:40:45]:

And making that effort. 

Norma:

Yeah. Like, right now we live in an apartment building. And I say hi to everybody and they talk to me. Like, I don't know like neighbors across the street. I don't know or down the streets, but I know pretty much everybody in the building. 

Julie:

So, as we wind down, I always sort of ask a question of all of our guests. If you had a do-over, if you had to start over and you're like 18 in Cornwallis, or you are in that bar, just about to start on this life as - as a military partner and like, no shade, I met my husband in a bar too, these things happen.

What advice do you give to people who are in those sort of situations now they're just starting their life as a military member or a military family member? I'm going to go with you first, Norma because we’ve been picking on Tom a lot.

Norma: 

What would I say?

It's a life that not a lot of people can do. They have to have resilience. You have to learn to be independent. And you have to learn how to say hi to strangers. That's what I would give for advice. And there's always somebody who will help you if you need it. 

Julie:

It's hard to push you out of your comfort zone, but sometimes that's where the biggest rewards are. 

Norma:

Oh, definitely. Oh, yeah. I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't. The things we go through. We learned either not to do it or do it better. Or- You know, for next time not to wrap a jar and put a book on top of it. When you're packing, right? That kind of thing, right?

You learn how to deal with your - with your kids and will be for the next time, right?

Julie:

Are you still finding stickers on things?

Norma: 

Yes! Yes!

Claudia:

That’s a common trend as well. 

Julie:

How is there still a sticker? This has been 8 years!

Norma:

It's 30 years.

Julie:

Tom, any advice? 

Tom:

I would just say to somebody, embrace it. Be open. Prepare yourself for lots of change. If you happen to meet that right person, again, embrace that. But yeah, it just, you have to be open. Prepare yourself. There's people out there if you get into - into the dumps, there's people out there that will help you. Whether you believe it or not. People will help you, they'll go out of their way to help you. 

Julie:

It's a different kind of bond and like there are people that we haven't seen in many - many years that my husband worked with that, I know if we were to call them at two o'clock in the morning and need them. They would be there it wouldn't - It wouldn't matter that it's been that many years. 

Tom: 

Oh, absolutely. 

Julie: 

They’d be there.

Thank you both so much for joining us. I've had a great time listening to your stories, and it's been really nice catching up. I think you’ve got a lot of collective wisdom to pass on. And I'm sure a lot of people listening here are gonna get a lot out of your experience and your wise words. Thank you very much for joining us and we hope you enjoy this episode of military family life.

Claudia:

That's it for this episode of military family life from one military family member to another. If you have any advice that you would like to share, let us know we would love to hear from you. We may even share your experiences on future episodes. If you have family and friends who want to learn more about living their best military family life, don't hesitate to let them know about our podcast. Thanks for listening. Join us again next time for more military family life.