Our Conversation with the Mills family

As many of you know April is month of the Military Child. It is an opportunity for our community to recognize the sacrifices and contributions made by the children Canadian Armed Forces members and Veterans.

So this month we wanted to hear from some military kids about their experiences and lessons learned.

Our Guests

Kim Mills has been a military spouse for more than 20 years.

She is the author of the military romance series The Way Home – She is public speaker who has talked to military family members at MFRCs and events across Canada.

Kim is also the creator of the acclaimed She is Fierce blog – and an online community by the same.  She encourages fellow military families to speak up about their struggles, to reach out for help, and to support one another.

Kim is the mom to three kids.  Two of them – Ivy and Jonas – are joining our conversation today.

You can check out Kim’s blog at :  https://www.sheisfierce.net

 Find out more about the Deployment Project where Kim and her kids entertained guests from across the community for Sunday night dinner.  https://www.sheisfierce.net/deployment-project/

We would love to hear from you.  If you are a Military Family Member that wants to share your experiences and lessons learned, email us at Podcast.Feedback@PetawawaMFRC.com 

Transcript

Julie [Intro]:
Welcome to Military Family Life, the podcast for Canadian military family members, by military family members. Do you wish you had a guidebook or mentor to help you with some of the challenges you're facing as part of a military family? Each episode we're going to bring you the stories of people who have been there, they're going to share the lessons that they've learned along the way to help you live your best military family life.

Julie [00:00:28]:
Hi, and welcome to Military Family Life. My name is Julie Hollinger. As many of you know, April is the Month of the Military Child. It's an opportunity for our community to recognize the sacrifices and the contributions that are made by children of Canadian Armed Forces members and veterans. So, for this month, we wanted to hear from some Canadian Armed Forces children.

Julie:
One of our guests today is Kim Mills. She has been a military spouse for more than 20 years. She is the author of the military romance series “The Way Home”, and she's a public speaker who has talked to military family members at MFRC's and events across the country. Kim is the creator of the acclaimed “She is Fierce” blog, and an online community that shares the same name. Kim encourages fellow military families to speak up about their struggles, to reach out for help, and to support one another. 

Kim is the mom of three kids. Two of them are joining us this month, Ivy and Jonas. Together we talk about the realities of life in the military family, deployments, reunion, relocations, the good, the bad and the ugly. We hope you enjoy the conversation that my co host, Claudia Beswick, and I had with Kim Mills, Ivy, and Jonas. 

Julie [00:01:38]:
Hi, and thanks for joining us. We are here with the Mills family. I feel that we are going to ask the question ‘please introduce yourselves and talk to and tell us what your connection is to the military’. It almost seems odd for me to do that. Because I think, so many people in the military family community already know the Millis family, already know Kim and the kids, and have watched them growing up and going through, but I'm going to do it anyway. I'm going start with Kim. Kim, do you want to introduce yourself? Tell us who you are. If there are things that people don't know about you and what is your connection to if someone's never heard of you, which seems crazy. Introduce yourself and what's your connection to the military. 

Kim [00:02:12]:
My name is Kim, and I am married to a man in the armored corps. We're currently IR, I live in Edmonton, he lives in Ottawa. We've been doing that for about half a year now. We have a year to two and a half years to go.

And I brought my kids to tag along. My oldest is not here because he is working. His name is Caleb he is 20 and my other two kids can introduce themselves. 

Julie:
Ivy.

Ivy [00:02:43]:
I’m Ivy. My connection is my dad, obviously. I don't really know what to say about myself. I really like music. I'm a music teacher and I'm grade 12 in high school. 

Julie:
Jonas.

Jonas:
My connection to the military is my dad, is in the Lord Strathcona’s 

Julie:
Perfect. So with a little bit of a background about why we decided to do this episode. Acouple of months back, we were talking to a couple about deployments, and they were talking about, you know, ‘this is how our kids went through it, this is what our kids thought’, and it occurred to us that we are talking about what kids through a parent lens, and it would be really great to actually talk to the kids of military members about what they're thinking, rather than trying to put our ideas on top of that. 

We thought naturally of Kim, a lot of people have asked us for the podcast to talk to Kim. She has a blog called “She is Fierce’. I have been following Kim's blog since it started, and I know everybody says like ‘oh, I've been following since the beginning’. But just a small connection: Kim is actually my cousin. So, when it was just a small blog for family and there were five of us following: I've been in there since the beginning, and Kim was in fact the only person other person I knew who knew anything about the military who was ever married to the military, because that's not something our family came from. 

Kim [00:4:01]:
No, I think that when I married Nathan, we certainly didn't have any family. I can't think of, I think we have I have an uncle who is, was in the Reserves at one point that was the closest my family ever got to that. So yeah, I definitely, Julie was, was it in terms of family connections. And I really married in blind so my kids kind of jumped on that bandwagon and we lived I mean; we were in Edmonton and Julie was in Ottawa and then Petawawa. So, our connection was very long distance, but I was glad that she was there.

Claudia:
Yeah, might just want to add on. You know, we were very lucky at the Petawawa MFRC to bring you in. I think the first time we brought you in was to celebrate International Women's Day. You came, and you did a presentation to the families there, and it was wonderful, and I remember checking out your website and we didn't talk about that or your blog, “She is Fierce”, I think was the first time I read your blog and thought, “hey, this is pretty cool.” And you had a lot of inspiring stories. And I think that was kind of our first introduction to your kiddos, as well. And you know, we're really appreciate you, and Jonas and Ivy coming and doing this for us, because there is a lot to be said about how we perceive the kids going through the military life and how they actually understand, or, or how they've gone through some of the unique challenges that the military lifestyle brings. So, thank you all for doing this. And really looking forward to the to the chat. 

Kim:
I think the first time, it was probably one of the very first times that my kids even met Paul and Julie, was me driving to Petawawa and then dumping them on Paul so that I could go to the women's night. So yeah, I was, I'm really good at that. And like, “hey, I'm coming to visit also, I need childcare. Hi, Paul. These are my kids.” And they had a great time. So…

Claudia [00:06:06]:
And therein lies the reason for the extended family network. 

Julie:
Exactly. So, I want to go to the kids rather than talking around you. And I guess the first question I have is, this is, how do you think the military has affected your life and the way that you see things? I sort of go back and forth with my own kids that the military has had a huge effect on their life. And then on the flip side, that they don't know anything different. So how does it affect them? Ivy, what do you think?

Ivy:
I used to work in customer service, and it was a lot easier to deal with men who would just speak really roughly, but not actually mean to, if that makes sense. Like, they didn't mean to speak roughly, they were just that kind of person. So, I think it's, it's made it a lot easier to do that sort of thing. And it's, it's been weird, I guess, like, not knowing when you're going to move, not knowing when dad's going and stuff like that. And him not being there for like certain holidays. But like, I've never known anything else other than that. So, I don't know, but I am really good at, like handshakes. Oh, so it's awesome, I think. Yeah, I think that, I think that does it. 

Julie [00:07:24]:
When you're talking about tones and voices. My kids say that my husband has an army voice, “Dad has an army voice” that comes out in airports, when we're running late, or when he's teaching them to do something like ride a bike, and it's not going as swimmingly as you'd like. Jonas, what about you? Do you think that being a military kid has affected you and how? 

Jonas:
I mean, probably. Not that I'd notice. Because you know, it's all I know. But I've been told I'm just, yeah, could be confrontation. 

Kim:
Oh, my gosh, you're making your dad sound like…

Claudia:
Do you know what I think Jonas? It's what I get from you as a man. A few words. Probably a lot like your dad. 

Jonas:
Thank you. 

Kim:
For the record. Their father is not like, verbally abusive. 

Ivy:
No. He just like, I don't know, yelling is one of his tones of voices. 

Julie:
There's a loud speaking voice. I think that they develop in the military. 

Claudia [00:08:21]:
It's not yelling. It's firm. I believe the term is that, it's just a firm voice, giving direction. I get you, I understand you, Ivy.

Kim:
That's one of the things that comes up quite a bit in our house is, “I'm not yelling, I'm speaking firmly” or “I'm, I'm making a point.” It's a point of contention because we all believe that it's yelling. But it's, I don't think that that's the intention behind the tone of voice. It's not it's not meant to be yelling. 

Julie:
My kids always tease my husband for like, doing the list. Because “A”, and then “two”, and I'm like, oh my goodness, if there's a list, we're like, we're going to be here for a really long time.

Kim:
Or like, axe hands. Like if the axe hand comes out.

Julie:
For those of you who can't see we're all sort of doing the same kind of gesture. So, we all kind of got that. Kim, how many times have you moved since the kids were born? 

Kim:
We haven't moved all that much. So, we were in Kingston, or we were in Edmonton for 12 years. And during that, sorry, 10 years, I guess, and during that time, all of the kids were born. All three of them came to Kingston with me. And then all three of them have now come back here to Edmonton. And then of course, since then Nathan has been posted to Ottawa, and he's gone IR. 

Julie [00:09:30]:
And then how many deployments have you guys done? 

Kim:
So, if you're talking about like, overseas like six-month deployments, then I was pregnant with my oldest for the first one. And then I just had the first one for the second deployment. Jonas was born during the third deployment. So, Ivy, all of them technically went through that third deployment. And since then, there's been two more, and the most recent was during COVID.

Claudia:
I have a question for Ivy and Jonas, when, when you guys did move, did you find it really challenging going to a new school and making new friends? Or was that something that just came naturally to you? 

Ivy:
For me, it wasn't that difficult. I don't know. I'm a theater kid. So, I'm just really loud. And “oh, I don't know, if you like the same things as I do, I will be your friend.” I'm less like that now. But as a kid, I was really sporadic. 

Claudia:
Awesome. What about you, Jonas? 

Jonas:
I was always pretty young when we moved. When we moved here, I was not even eight years old yet. So, if it was hard, I could barely remember. 

Julie [00:10:40]:
Do you guys remember a lot of the deployments, about your dad being gone? 

Ivy:
Well, like I remember it, but like, it's not like, “oh, this is when your father was gone.” It was just like, “oh, he's on a deployment. Yeah. That happens.”

Kim:
I think there is a lot of like, like, the deployment just makes up a piece of his absences. So, you know, yes, he was in Latvia for six months. But you know, before that, he was in Wainwright, and he was in Gagetown, and he was like, you know, there was workup training to go there. And there was, so I don't know that the deployments really like stood out as much when it came to like the time away. I think that happened more during Afghanistan when they were, there was more kind of like fear or like risk around it. But the kids are too young to remember Afghanistan. And since then, I think the deployments have just kind of melded into all the other absences. 

Julie:
I think for myself, when I look back at sort of memories, it’s just “Was dad there for that, or was he not there for that?” So, you know, the time that we you know, we did, we did this? Yeah, he was there. Or sometimes I'll tell a story and he looks at me blankly and like, oh, I guess you weren't there for that.

Claudia [00:11:52]:
So, when dad was deployed, this one for the kids, whoever wants to answer: did your mom take over the dad voice when he was gone? Did you hear that a lot? 

Ivy:
Mom has her own voice that can scare us. 

Claudia:
I love it. 

Ivy:
That's like, a completely different thing. There's a dad voice and then there's a mom voice, which is more like, “I'm disappointed.” And that's scarier than dad's angry voice. So…

Claudia:
Makes sense. 

Julie:
You agree, Jonas? 

Jonas:
Fear and grief

Julie:
And guilt! 

Claudia [00:12:24]:
That's quite the combination. Yeah. 

Kim:
I didn't do like Nathan's mom, I'd always heard, because Nathan's an army brat and his mom, back in the 80s, kept like, the list. Like, your dad is going to hear about this when he gets home. 

Claudia:
Wait till your dad comes home. Yeah, I had that too. 

Kim:
So, if he was gone for six or seven months, there was no like internet or very few phone calls, you know, and it's in the 70s and 80s. So, they had a list. And I tried not to do that, because my husband did tell me he didn't find that particularly effective. But, yeah, so I didn't I didn't necessarily have a list for him. I tried not to throw out the, you know, “wait till your dad gets home.” It's not very effective. If it's going to be like five months away, like they have no, they don't care what happens in five months. 

Ivy:
Like you're going to forget it.

Claudia:
Or you forgot that that happened. It's like, “oh, wait a minute.” And I can relate to Nathan because it was the same for me. When I was growing up, being a military brat, it was always “wait till your dad gets home. Wait till he, wait till I tell him what you did this time.” Yeah. 

Julie [00:13:33]:
Now, we always talk about on the podcast, Claudia, and I talked about how we are aging ourselves, and that when we first met our husbands, and we were first married, we used to do letters back and forth. But, even in your lifetime, guys, you must there's different ways that you were able to communicate with your dad when he was away. How has that changed as you've gotten older? You probably would remember video calls from when you were little, and it was just sort of a group conversation. So, how's that changed now that you're older, and you can sort of communicate in different ways on your own instead of having to rely on your mom for that? 

Ivy:
When we were younger, I hated doing video calls while he was away. I absolutely hated like calling him on the phone or doing video, video calls and stuff because it was like, you're not actually here. I can't actually like see you or do any of that. So, if you wanted to do something for us, like when I got my tablet in like the sixth grade, he was in a deployment. And he just put like pictures on it and a little video instead of trying to call us and stuff. And because a lot of the time like he couldn't call us, obviously because he was deployed. So, I don't know. I just didn't like it. I didn't like doing it. 

Julie:
Jonas?

Jonas:
It went from everyone gathered around the family computer so we can do a Skype call to mom's Face Timing him on her phone in a restaurant. 

Julie [00:14:56]:
And now that you're older, do you sort of like text back and forth? Is it like a family group text and just like a series of memes? Or do you still try to do the family calls? 

Ivy:
We still call, but like, we mostly just text him in the group chat.

Claudia:
Kim, did you when the kids were younger? Did you do things like, I know now one of the bigger things is the deployment walls, right, and setting up all this stuff and counting down certain ways of, you know, when Daddy comes home. I mean, I think probably the most creative thing I did was put candy in a jar and they got one each night before bed, and then I had to stretch. 

Kim:
Trust. The trust. Claudia, how do you have that kind of trust in the army? 

Claudia:
I don't. I used to cheat, typically at midnight, put more candy in the jar when you're not sure. 

Julie:
I used to do the same thing. Bedtime another handful. 

Claudia:
Yeah, we didn't know anything about deployment wells back then. But… 

Kim [00:15:51]:
I have never done a deployment Well, I'm not that coordinated. I did attempt, I want to say for maybe his most recent deployment, we did. We do have a map on our one of our walls. It's one of those scratch maps, and we use it for our whole family. So, if anyone from the family has been any of those places, then we scratch it off. And there are these little pins for it. And a lot of times what I'll do is put the pin where Nathan is and the pin where we are. That's as far as I've ever gotten. It's just a little scratch map on the hallway. And oftentimes they'll forget about it for a really long time, it got really depressing, because then I literally wrote on it “up next.” and then I like had a little arrow to Ireland, because we were supposed to go to Ireland for our HLTA. And then COVID happens. So, then I really hated the scratch map. So, we don't, I think, use it all that much. But I'm not as creative as some of those moms. I also like, grew up as a military wife around a time of like, not necessarily advertising that. So, it's not that it's bad. Now, it's just that was what we were told and like kind of the culture when we were younger military family was that it wasn't something that you, you know, put out publicly or had pictures of or like showed people a lot of so. And I also started this journey with Afghanistan, which kind of changed how I viewed deployments, like the whole concept of like knowing exactly when they are knowing exactly when they're coming home knowing exactly when you could talk to them. Like none of those things were things during Afghanistan, so I never got used to, like expecting that. So, the kids are right, like Ivy. They hated video calls. And I rarely called them in for them. They didn't want to see it would make everything worse, if they saw Nathan over video now everything mostly happens, like you said on memes on a family chat. And Nathan tries to say good morning to the kids. And sometimes they respond. And sometimes they ignore him. 

Ivy [00:17:51]:
I'm in class.

Julie:
In fairness, that just might be a parent thing, and not necessarily a deployment thing. 

Kim:
No, it's not a deployment, then that's just the thing. Like we don't always get responses from our kids. So, we'll say the most like the best advice I ever got was from a psychologist When Caleb was, it was the third deployment, and Caleb was really struggling and, he would have been like five or so, and they gave Nathan the advice to give Caleb something that was happening in the community to tell him about and how it changed every time he talked to him. And so, we had some houses being built by our house, and so Caleb, anytime he did get the chance to talk to Nathan, and that was, you know, a few and far between and it was a satellite phones with like, it's already hard to have those conversations, and so it was really amazing that we got, we got this advice that Caleb every time he picked up the phone instead of just sitting there like a five year old who doesn't know how to talk on the phone could say, “Oh, Dad, this is what's happening. I saw that the house got a roof, I saw that the house got you know”, and he had a starting point. And so, with having something to say, it felt like they could at least, you know, talk because I don't know if you've ever tried to put a five-year-old on the phone like to someone that's like they don't want to talk. So, that was probably the best advice we ever gotten, it was quite helpful to give them like a specific task to tell their dad every time they were on the phone. 

Julie [00:19:12]:
It's a great suggestion. 

Claudia:
Well, I think communication has, has changed a lot to over the years, right? And in how we communicate with the partners when they're deployed, or away on training, or even having to deal with IR right, that's, that qualifies as well. And so, social media wasn't (back then) wasn't what it is today. And I think that that makes a bit of difference to how easily how easy it is to be connected. Back in the day when you talk about the satellite phone. It wasn't, you know, I mean, I remember being at home we agreed every Sunday night he would call home at this time and make sure that the kids are around and then like you say try and get them to talk on the phone, which when they were younger was not very successful. 

Kim:
And I often said, like, they'd be like, “Oh, didn't they talk to dad on the call?” Generally called between like one and three in the morning. So no, the kids didn't talk to dad on the phone. He never called during the day. So…

Kim:
Yeah, I we had “daddy bears”, both the kids still have their “daddy bears”. 

Ivy:
Mine’s in the garage. But I loved that thing when you, when I was younger, because he would be like on deployment. And then he put like a new little message in the palm of it so we could hear it at night. 

Julie [00:20:34]:
Now, Kim says that she wasn't that creative, and she didn't do deployment walls. But I seem to remember a year-long project where you are inviting random people from the community to your house for dinner every week and, two years? Okay. 

Kim:
Two deployments. 

Julie:
And it seems to me that that was a pretty intense project. Do you guys remember that? And who was the favorite person who came for dinner for that? Ivy?

Ivy:
I liked it when like, Dad's boss came, and Jonas smacked his hand because we were making gingerbread houses and he was trying to eat the candy. But Mom said we weren't allowed to eat the candy. But then he started eating the candy. So, Jonas smacked it out of his hand.

Kim:
That was General Milner. He was the general in charge of the entire division. Yeah. 

Claudia [00:21:18]:
Cool. Well, that's a nice…

Julie:
He was breaking the rules and stealing candy. So really…

Kim:
Fair, he took his punishment. He agreed. 

Claudia:
That, that's a nice story. 

Julie:
Did you have a favorite Jonas?

Jonas:
Couldn’t tell you. I don’t think I was old enough to remember all of them. 

Kim:
We did have police officers. We had a lot of police officers because Jonas was really into them for that one deployment. So… 

Ivy:
I liked PJ. We had our friend PJ over and he was a jujitsu, like wrestler. He was really cool. 

Kim:
Do you remember PJ, Jonas? 

Jonas:
Yeah.

Claudia [00:21:52]:
That is pretty cool. 

Kim:
PJ came to Jonas's. He came for a deployment dinner, and then he learned that it was Jonas's birthday coming up. So, then he came, Jonas was having a Ninja Turtle birthday, and PJ had a full sleeve tattoo of Ninja Turtles. So, he came to Jonas's ninja turtle birthday. Do you remember that birthday? 

Jonas:
Yeah, actually.

Julie:
In addition, you also decided at Christmas time to take all three of your kids with little notice and drive in New York City.

Claudia:
I remember that story. 

Julie:
Which as far as I'm concerned, it deserves a medal. What inspired you to do to take a trip like that? At Christmas? 

Kim [00:22:30]:
Caleb didn't, he came into our room one night, like right before Christmas, and I had just planned to just do things pretty quiet. And he said he just didn't want to do Christmas. Like, he wanted to just pack it up and wait and not do it. Because dad wasn't there, and it wasn't going to be good, and he was really upset. He was like 12. So, I kind of got him back to bed, and then I got on my phone. I think it was the 22nd maybe are the 23rd in the middle of the night. And I, I booked a hotel in New York City so the kids could wake up in New York on Christmas Day and then completely panicked. Like, I booked it for like two days later. I booked it on points, and I completely panicked as soon as it was booked because I realized I was going to have to drive to the hotel. Not the driving like itself to get to New York, but like the driving in Manhattan was what was terrifying. 

And I was working at the MFRC I was, actually, I think it was supposed to work on Christmas Eve. So, then I ended up going in and letting them know, I was like, “I'm not going to come in, because I'm driving to New York City at four in the morning.” And like, it's a good thing, working the MFRC are like “Okay, cool. Like that sounds like it makes total sense.” And yeah, I packed the kids up. I woke them up, I didn't tell them… I woke them up with Nathan, I think, even on a video call. I think he planned to call, so we woke them up with, Ivy’s nodding so that must be right with dad on the video, and then I told them that we were going to New York City, and I put them in the van in their pajamas. I figured we change the hotel. And then I drove to the border.

So, would have been like 4:30 in the morning when I got to the border. And I look, I look like a domestic, like I've got three kids in their pajamas at 4:30 in the morning on Christmas Eve trying to cross the border into the US. Like, it wasn't a good look. But the border guard was American, obviously, I was trying to get into the states, and ex-military. And I was like, he's like, “Does their dad know that you're here?” And I was like, he's deployed. So, I have a letter, which I had gotten. And then he immediately was on board. He was like That makes perfect sense for someone to drive seven hours each way to spend 24 hours in New York City. I can't imagine how anyone would think that wasn't totally normal. Yeah, we drove seven hours Jonas was six. He was dressed as Captain America by the time we left the hotel, and we spent the very rainy day, walking around New York City. 

Ivy [00:25:17]:
Our feet were purple by the end of the day. 

Claudia:
Purple? 

Ivy:
We had to like, soak them in the bath. 

Kim:
Yeah, well, it was wet, and we were walking in the rain because it was 17 degrees. It was raining. And we went to the Museum of Natural History, and then I couldn't get a cab. Because I don't, never in my life have I hailed a cab. Like why would I like I call a cab? I've never hailed a cab off the street, like I, so I couldn't get a cab to stop, probably because I had some kids with me. And then I was busy on my phone with just my Wi Fi, trying to figure out like how far the walk would be. And then Jonas like comes around the corner. And he's like, I have a cab. And so, he just going to hail the cab by himself. So…

Julie:
Captain America costume worked out for you. 

Kim:
It really did. Yeah. 

Claudia [00:26:05]:
What did you guys think of New York? 

Ivy:
I really liked it. I love the museums. I still remember like the Natural History Museum. I remember the hotel receptionist because even like a couple years later, he recognized Jonas and us. Like for the second time we went so… 

Claudia:
Cool. 

Kim:
Yeah, he was the like the concierge person that was there. And yeah, we came back with Nathan, afterwards. And he recognized the kids. 

Julie:
Think of how many people actually come through that hotel that they would recognize you? That's, that's incredible. 

Kim:
Yeah, he was. He was super awesome. Like he would give us, and I'm sure that's, you know, part of his job. But yeah, he sat and showed us how to walk everywhere and where to go. And we could then keep in mind, like I remember telling myself like, “It's Christmas Day. And he's also not at home with his wife and kids. Right. He's here working on Christmas Day at this hotel.” So yeah, we had a great time. I had a great time at Christmas. It was wonderful. Like, Nathan wasn't there. But you have to make the best of what you've got. And Jonas was the most fun to bring because he was just like in his element, and you're just collecting police autographs, and it was Christmas. So, there was a lot of police on duty. But there wasn't a lot happening. So, like every corner, just had cops like, leaning against their cars hanging out. So, he got to like, meet all of these different police officers. They let him in his car. He got to say, “Happy Birthday,” or “Happy Birthday,” had to say “Merry Christmas” on loudspeaker. He traded pins with them. Yeah, it was a lot of fun to see Jonas have a great time there too.

Claudia [00:27:32]:
So travel obviously, is something that you guys do a lot of. What's been your favorite place to visit? Or what's your most unique or furthest place that you've ever visited?

Ivy:
I liked going to Washington DC because I loved the museums there. And I loved all of that. We went there after coming back from Disney World after dad's, dad's deployment when you're, and then we were driving back from Disney World, back to Kingston. And we stopped at Washington DC, and I really liked it. 

Claudia:
Oh, what about you Jonas?

Jonas:
Probably say New York. Again. I was very young. I barely remember any of them. But I do remember things about New York. 

Kim:
We saw Nashville as well. 

Julie:
Are you all country music fans? Kids, at least I'd be shaking their head. Now. I know that you guys aren't musicians and you do have your own band. What kind of music do you like Ivy? 

Ivy:
I don't know if I can like, I like Midwest emo music. But that's not like, my mom's like, she has no idea what I'm talking about. But I like Midwest Emo, but honestly, I'll listen to anything. I like certain types of country. I like Miranda Lambert, and Dolly Parton. But that's about all the country I like. But yeah…

Claudia:
Who doesn't love Dolly Parton? Come on. 

Ivy:
True.

Julie:
Jonas, you've got pretty eclectic music tastes, who are your favorites right now?

Jonas [00:29:09]:
Are you ready? 

Julie:
Yep. 

Jonas:
The application. Cannibal Corpse. Death. 

Kim:
Okay, you listen to other music besides the…

Ivy:
But that's his favorite.

Julie:
I feel really old right now.

Kim:
I would have known. 

Claudia:
I was going to say is it sad that I don't know any of those groups or singers? 

Kim:
They're just death metal groups, 

Jonas:
They are called bands. 

Claudia:
Oh, bands, okay. See? No, I just aged myself even more. 

Kim:
But Jonas will be in the car with me, and he will play like Elvis, and then he'll play whatever that Cannibal Corpse is, and then he'll play like Smashing Pumpkins, and then he'll play Radiohead, and then he'll play something screamy like Korn and like, and he…What was that country's rate, record, that you just found that you started playing on guitar last night? 

Jonas:
Marty Robbins. 

Claudia:
Oh, classic, classic country. 

Kim:
Yeah. So, it is quite eclectic. His, his, music tastes always amazed me when we're driving, because it's quite the like, whiplash, between genres. 

Claudia [00:30:19]:
That's awesome. Ivy, you say you're into the creative stuff, the theatre stuff. Have you been to a live theatre show? 

Ivy:
Yeah, I went to Hamilton with my dad. Last year, actually, I loved it. It was so good. 

Julie:
We saw it in Ottawa, it was absolutely amazing. My daughter, Kathryn is a huge fan of Hamilton. So, we already knew all of the words. But I think Paul had more fun watching us watch the show than actually watching the show itself. 

One of the things that we like to talk about in this podcast is lessons learned and things that, you know, we can share with other families to make things go easier. And a lot of our podcast guests have talked about how to make things easier for the kids. So, I want to ask Kim what her advice is, but I would really like to hear from you guys. And I'll give you a chance to think about it a little bit. What's your advice on how to make things easier for the kids, because I think as parents, we have one idea, but doesn't necessarily always ring with what is maybe true from your perspectives. Kim? 

Kim [00:31:19]:
I think that a lot of pressure gets put on the kids, like, parents have expectations of how well, or how badly, they're going to handle it, and they assume that things are going to go certain ways or that they need certain supports. And I think it's, you know, you learn to just see how it goes. And as much as I think that it's amazing that there's so many more supports out there than there were in the beginning, when our kids were young, like Claudia, and Julie, and I, like when our kids were little, there wasn't really a lot of, you know, understanding or talk, or information about how to work with kids during deployments. And I think that it's amazing that there's more of that. 

Now, however, there was something to be said for, you know, not immediately inundating with, kids with, you know, all the things we think that they need, or that other people told us, you know, is going to, how it's going to work, or how it's not going to work.  Every kid is going to manage the deployment differently. Every family unit is going to manage the deployment differently. I think how the mom is managing the deployment with the kids matters. We reflect a lot of our own personal anxiety or personal, you know, feelings onto the kids. But just like Ivy said, with the video calls, you know, like, you have to be willing to listen to what your kids are saying or understand if they're too, too young to tell you, you know, they might not like what you think is going to be the best option for them. Maybe you know, twice daily video calls does not make the absence go better for them. Maybe they do better to just, you know, write notes to their dad, or if they can send texts or, you know, take pictures, and send those pictures that are younger, and they're not in the texting thing. Like, there isn't a right way to do it. 

And there is something to be said for too much communication. And, you know, not every kid has to, you know, talk to their parents through all the things and not every child will necessarily be traumatized by having their parent miss their birthday or their first day of school or Christmas because there's other opportunities for that parent to be part of their lives on different days. I like to think that we taught our kids that Tuesday can be just as special as Christmas and there's other ways to create bonds with the people that you love that aren't necessarily having to be around them 24/7 and other than that, I'm sure we really screwed them up the rest away. I'm not sure so you…

Claudia [00:33:57]:
You know Kim, there's, there's a lot to be said in what you had indicated with listening to your kids, and I know when my son was really young, and my husband was away on course, and he had a couple of hours to come home, or a day to come home on the weekend, it was me going to meet him somewhere because him coming home for those couple of hours or for the day really threw the kids out of sync. Because they just get used to them, you know, Dad being at home, and then he'd have to leave and then it's like, you as a parent having to start back from scratch, right as day one when, when they deploy. 

Kim:
So, anyone that's heard me at an MFRC, maybe, probably you guys have, I'm not a huge fan of HLTA. And I think that there's so much information and warning, and even maybe, you know, like an over, an over warning when it comes to, you know, what issues might come up when a member returns and what to look for, and how to get back together and how to communicate, etc. But nobody ever talks about that during HLTA. We're all just supposed to enjoy those two weeks as though none of those things happen during HLTA. And we only ever talk about them during reintegration at the end of a deployment. And we pretend like HLTA is seamless. And everybody should always just have the very best time. And I know that my view is jaded, because my spouse is home, HLTAs were both during very difficult Afghanistan deployments. So, there was a lot of other you know, factors happening. But at the same time, you know, the idea of you know, communication going wrong, and there being some bitterness, and some hurt feelings, and you know, jetlag and you know, things that the member is dealing with, and all of those things that happened and reintegration happened during HLTA.

But we're too busy telling couples and families that they should just be happy because they get those two weeks, or those 16 days together. And we're never recognizing that those days are hard. And there's going to be times during them, where people are going to argue, or they're going to go out of their way not to argue and then be bitter about it when it's over. So, I like I don't like HLTAs to begin with, but I will always tell couples to go somewhere else, like my husband's not allowed to come home for HLTA. Like I was like, if we can't go visit you somewhere, then you can just go by yourself, like you're not coming back to the house for two weeks to screw up everything we've got going on here to make everybody miss you more, and then just disappear. And now with IR we're in that boat every single time he comes home, you know, he's in all reality, deployed for two years, and comes home, you know, every three or four months for a couple of weeks, and then disappears again. And it's not ideal, but we don't have you know, the luxury of the same kinds of things when it comes to just a deployment HLTA. But, but definitely like understanding that kids, very few kids, are going to benefit from like a one hour to two, two-week long visit in the middle of a six-month absence. They're just they don't know how to handle all those feelings. I barely know how to handle those feelings. I'm the one that I'm getting annoyed and frustrated. I'm sure that my kids are getting even more confused and whatever. So yeah…

Julie [00:37:23]:
I remember Paul coming home for an HLTA, and Grace was all, gosh, 11 months old, it was just before her birthday. And the day before he came home, the fridge broke. So, all of the baby's milk was in a cooler in the kitchen floor. He said, “What happened?” I'm like, “We'll talk about tomorrow, we'll talk about tomorrow.” And you know, she didn't recognize him. And she, you know, she didn't want to go to him. And he's like, “Why doesn't she wear shoes?” And like “Well, she just doesn't like, you know, let's, let's not sort of argue with this.” This is the way things happen. “Why did she not sleep in her crib?”, like, “Dude, you're not here. You're only here for a limited amount of time. And I still have to make this deployment with his baby last for another couple of months. So, like, please, let's not question things. We're not going to try put it back in a crib. This is the way things work. So, if you'd like to sort of hang out and, you know, hang out with us for the next two weeks, that's great. But we're not implementing major changes of how you would do it differently.” 

Kim [00:38:09]:
No, I… we…

Claudia:
It really is a process to, to adjust, right. And getting into the new routines 

Kim:
There is such an adjustment process. And we do it during reintegration, and we ignore it during HLTA. And that can be so damaging to the relationship because the person goes back after HLTA and you're left with a spouse, with both of them being like “Why wasn't that perfect? Why weren't we just happy to be together? Why didn't that go the way we thought it was going to be? And everybody was happy to see me.” And, and then people start having unnecessary anxiety over the fact that like, it's probably, I'm assuming unless it's just me, more often than not that people aren't having idealistic HLTA is right, like last HLTA that I got to go on with my spouse, we went to Thailand. We still bickered halfway through because we planned a vacation while he was across the country, and we never discussed what we wanted to get out of it. We're like, we'll just go to Thailand. And we'll have a great time backpacking. And I'm sure we want exactly the same things out of this trip. We don't need to talk about it. Like, and we didn't want the same things out of the trip. And we still ended up being like, “Why don't you want to go over here? Why don't you want to just stay here? Why don't you want to go to the beach? Why can't…?” We like, we had envisioned it in two different ways. So, the idea that a person can just come back into a home and expect that home to like, welcome them with open arms and have zero crises during the time that they're there, and then they can leave. And everybody will feel happy is completely like, it's insane to me like, absolutely not. And Ivy is nodding, because we don't let Nathan come back if he's gone for too long, and somewhere else to be. 

Julie [00:39:46]:
Ivy, any thoughts or advice for people who have, have kids in a deployment coming up? How you think that they should handle it, or what worked for you that you wish people would have known? 

Ivy:
Honestly, like, it's okay to not feel anything if your parent is gone for the umpteenth time this year. I've had parents be like, “Are you okay? Like your I know, your dad just, just left.” And I'm like, ‘This is the fourth time this year and just not even September, I'm fine. I don't know what you guys are talking about.” But they're such, this stigma around military kids where it's like, you must be sad all the time whenever your dad goes. It's like, “He'll be back in two weeks. I don't, I don't know what you're what you're talking about.” 

But it's also, I had a hard time dealing with the fact that after my dad would come back, after like the six months, I would get really frustrated, really easy for the first couple days. Because my mom, and like my brothers, and I would have this routine of like, what we would do when it needs to get done and how we would do it. But my dad is very particular in what he wants to get done. And sometimes you get overwhelmed with that and he gets frustrated if it's not done the way he wants it to get done. So, it's easy to get frustrated. But it's also like, it's normal because after six months of not having him in the house, you're not going to be used to what he wants to do anymore. And sometimes, it doesn't really matter if you do what he set out to do when he's gone. Because he's not there. We'll do what mom wants. That's, that's her thing. But… 

Claudia [00:41:33]:
That's wise words.

Kim:
I think we learned in the last little bit when he came back was, as the kids have gotten older, there's a feeling especially on his end, that he'll come back and we don't ask his opinion, we don't, you know, ask him even to help us with things while we're doing them. You know, we'll give you the chores, we'll do the things, we'll put everything in motion. And then he spends, you know, the first little bit trying hard not to insert himself because he's been doing it this way for years. And he's smart enough to have learned a few lessons along the way. 

But it feels like, you know, I'm coming back to a house and like they don't the house has learned to go without me. And that ups his frustration when he feels like the kids don't come to him. The kids don't need him, the kids, you know, have that we have our own routines, we don't even consider asking him when we have something that comes up that we need help with for any of us. And that's hard on both ends. But I think the kids have learned at this past time, because they've gotten older that it's not just us, it's hard on his end, too. If he comes home and feels like nobody's ever asking him for help, and nobody needs him around the house anymore, and for somebody that you know, wants to be needed and wants to be useful, it's not the easiest to come home and feel like the family has functioned just fine, and he is no longer required to help it run. 

Julie [00:42:55]:
I remember this amazing video that I saw coming into Valcartier, a couple of years ago, and it was a military member, I think was one of the clips, maybe the CO, I'm not sure if I find the link, I'll put it in the show notes. And he was talking about the very first time he came back from a deployment and the advice that he got. And he said, you know, you ever seen people play “Double-Dutch”, you said you know, before they jump back in, they stand there and they kind of watch the routine they watched the when the ropes are going to come. And then after they've seen the pattern, then they jump in. And they said when you come back from a deployment, you almost need to do that, like see how the routine is going in the house. Don't just jump in and think that you're going to fix it. Because you're going to upset it like it's going to grind the whole thing to a halt. That was such a great analogy of how to how to make that work from them. And I hadn't really thought about it – that sounds awful. I hadn't really thought how hard it would be for him because it was, you know, it was all about me and the kids. Jonas, do you have anything that you want to add? You can just jump on in here dude.

Jonas:
Not so much for the families but just for other people. Like bringing attention to it could make it worse. You know, just always been like, “Do you miss your dad? Hmm?” That like, you said you miss your dad. It's just that's not helpful that's making it worse. 

Julie:
There are other more interesting things about you than the fact that your dad's gone. 

Jonas:
Yeah. 

Julie [00:44:08]:
It's a good point. 

Ivy:
There's something I like to add to that.

Sometimes extended family while your parent is gone, sometimes really sucks. Because, we'll try to have a normal conversation with them, and it'd be like, “How's your dad doing? How are you know that your dad's gone? Are you feeling sad?” And it's like, “Yeah. I don't know what to say to you. Because of course, I feel sad now that you're talking about it.” So yeah, I know that he's gone. I know that he is gone for however long. You don't have to ask about it every week. 

Kim:
I think what my, my children are articulating is that their mother has done a really good job at teaching them out of sight out of mind.

Why do we have to keep talking about it?

Claudia [00:44:59]:
I think it's more about being resilient. 

Julie:
I remember, like Grace was three, my parents brought it to this toy lending library, and she got this great big doll house, and it had all the little figurines in it. And she'd been playing with it for a while. My mom came over and she was missing like the dad doll. And she said, Where's the daddy doll? And she's, she pointed over on the bookshelf. And she's like, he's on the trip right now.

But that was her reality, right? Like the dad wasn't always going to be there. Sometimes the dad was on the trip. And she just went put it on a bookshelf and she was just playing with the remaining people. And I'm like, I didn't really think it was a sad thing. I'm thinking, well, that's just a reflection of what her life is. And she didn't think it was sad. So, like, you know, why were we trying to make it more than it was for her just doing what they do? 

Kim:
I think one of the main times when my kids have just made me speechless in that way is that I remember if it was Jonas or Caleb, but they were playing, 

Julie:
Let’s just say it was Jonas, because Jonas, Jonas is here. 

Kim:
So, we'll say it was Jonas, they were playing with army, army men, little army men. And they had their dad’s (much to his annoyance), their dad's old GI Joes. So, like the ones that were held together with elastic in the middle. And the elastic had gotten brittle and broken. And so, the dude had no legs. And I had picked it up off the ground, and I was putting it in the garbage, and the child had a complete meltdown with this little army guy. And they're like, we’re like, “The guy has no legs. Like if it's done, he needs to go in there.” And “Just because he has no legs, doesn't mean he can't be a soldier. Mom, he's perfectly good as he is Mom.” Oh my gosh, like one of those things that like is completely innocent. Your child just doesn't want you to throw out their toy. But I was like, hysterical I was I had to like, leave the room and take a minute like, “Oh my gosh, that was....” So that became a thing that we said. I told my husband all the time. Just because they're missing a leg sweetie doesn't mean that they're not good for things. Yeah. My kids had a moment it was adorable. 

Julie [00:46:59]:
They played those heartstrings.

Kim:
They really do. They're really good at it, too. Yeah, I did teach like, Caleb got to a point where at one point he, he did learn to use the deployment piece to get things that he wanted from other people. It was a very short-lived time. But yeah, I was laughing. They have absolutely learned to do this.

At school with their, you know, with other adults, like if somebody's going to, you know, take you out food or get you ice cream if your dad's deployed that I mean… 

Claudia:
So Ivy, what's, what's…

Ivy:
I’ve gotten extended papers for that. I've been like, sorry, it's been really rough at home. My dad's gone. I forgot to do it. And then I just got another day to do my work. 

Claudia:
That's pretty clever. 

Ivy [00:47:43]:
Mom's staring me down right now. She's giving me a death stare. 

Claudia:
I think that's all about being creative and resilient. So why not? That's pretty clever. What about you? Jonas, did you take advantage of anything? 

Ivy:
Sorry, can I add something really quick? 

Claudia:
You go. 

Ivy:
Okay. There were times when we would hear some of Dad's non-military friends talking and they'd like swear or something. And they'd be like, “Oh sorry, the kids are near.” And I don't remember how young I was, but I'd be like, “I was raised by Strathconas. I don't. I'm used to it. I don't really care.” 

Kim:
Yeah, she did actually say that out loud to a group of people who were apologizing for swearing, in front of the children.

Julie [00:48:27]:
These things happen. 

Kim:
It's true, though, that they never picked up any of the language which I found very impressive because it's quite the vocabulary on some of them. 

Claudia:
Did mom pick up the language? 

Kim:
My language is worse than my husband's notoriously worse than my husband's. My husband does not curse very often. And I am, I have my moments. 

Julie:
Jonas? Thoughts?

Jonas:
I got nothing to add.

Kim [00:48:55]:
I have, I this will be my fun story about Jonas to end this little… when we did have PJ over, so he loved PJ. PJ was like a kid himself. And he was a radio DJ, as well as he was one of the instructors for the jujitsu that the kids were taking, and just a really sweet kid, but maybe in his early 20s, I don't know. He had got the kids on, like a float, for the Santa parade. And we had invited him to our deployment dinner with his fiancée. And after the dinner, he came to Jonas's birthday party. And they were making crafts. And I think because this kid was young, and you know, very well intentioned, but I don't think had been to a lot of like birthday parties of, you know, school aged kids. So, when he showed up, he didn't realize like, there was no other parents there. Like it's literally just me and like 10 children, right, and then PJ. So, this little girl asks Jonas, if PJ is his dad, and Jonas says, “No, he just comes over when my dad's gone.” Just picturing this girl on the way home being like, “Oh, it was just mom and the guy that comes over when their dad's gone.” Yeah, so…

Julie:
Thank you all for joining us guys. It was like a nice little family reunion here. Claudia, I guess you're part of the family now. It was nice to connect with you. And I do have to mention I thought about it after we said we didn't have any military connection that we do have a significant number of relatives who did serve in the Second World War. And I'm assuming that family members will listen to this podcast, and they want to make sure that we get that in. 

Kim:
If we forgot you. We didn't mean to. We love all of you. There's a lot and we forget. 

Julie:
Absolutely. Thank you all for joining us. I am going to put in the in the show notes. All of the links to “She is Fierce.” I'll see if I can find some of the archived posts of the deployment dinners and Kim and the kids and their trip to New York. Kim. What's the address for the blog? Well, how can we find you? 

Kim:
Just “She is Fierce dot net.” (sheisfierce.net) 

Julie:
“She is fierce dot net.” Thank you all have a great time if you know of any other military family member that you would like to hear from. If you yourself would like to share your story and talk about the lessons that you've learned along the way. Give us a shout. Bye!

Claudia [Outro]:
And that's it for this episode of military family life from one military family member to another. If you have any advice that you would like to share, let us know we would love to hear from you. We may even share your experiences on future episodes. If you have family and friends who want to learn more about living their best military family life, don't hesitate to let them know about our podcast. Thanks for listening. Join us again next time for more military family life.