Military Family Life
Military Family Life
Our Conversation with Cory and Shannon Nowell
This month, we are talking to Shannon and Cory Nowell about their lives as a Military - and Veteran – family.
This episode is part one of two. In it we talk about the challenges that come with relocations, IR, and Out Can postings. We also talk the medical release process, PTSD, the transition from being a Military to a Veteran family – and the impact it has on the entire family.
About our Guests:
Shannon Nowell has been connected to the military for her entire life- first as a Military Child and later as a Military Spouse. Shannon is also connected to Military in her professional life having worked at a Military Family Resource Centre and now with Soldier ON.
Cory Nowell joined the Military in 1998 – moving from British Columbia to Gagetown to work in Air Defence. In 2018, Cory competed at the Invictus Games as part of Team Canada. He is now retired from the military – having served for 23 years.
You're going to want to follow - or subscribe - to our podcast so you don’t miss part part when we talk to Shannon and Cory about their experience at the Invictus Games.
Contact us:
We would love to hear from you. If you are a Military Family Member that wants to share your experiences and lessons learned, email us at Podcast.Feedback@PetawawaMFRC.com
Our Conversation with Cory and Shannon Nowell
Julie [Intro]:
Welcome to Military Family Life, the podcast for Canadian Military family members, by Military family members. Do you ever wish you had a guidebook or mentor to help you with some of the challenges you're facing as part of a Military family? Each episode we're going to bring you the stories of people who have been there, they're going to share the lessons that they've learned along the way to help you live your best Military family life.
Julie [00:00:28]:
Hi, and welcome to another episode of Military Family Life. My name is Julie Hollinger. This month, my co-host Claudia Beswick and I are talking to Corey and Shannon Nowell about their lives as a Military and Veteran family. Let me tell you a little bit about our guests.
Shannon Nowell has been connected to the military for her entire life, first as a Military child, and then as a Military spouse. Shannon's also connected to the Military in her professional life, having worked in a Military Family Resource Centre and now with Soldier On.
Cory joined the military in 1998, moving from British Columbia to Gagetown to work in Air Defence. In 2018, Cory competed at the Invictus Games as part of Team Canada. He is now retired from the Military, having served for 23 years.
This episode is part one of two. In it we're going to talk about the challenges that come with relocations, IR, OUTCAN postings. We also talk about the medical release process, PTSD, and the transition from being a Military family to a Veteran family, and how all of that has an impact on every member of the family. You're going to want to follow the podcast, so you don't miss part 2. That's when we're going to talk to Shannon and Cory about their experience at the Invictus Games. So, stay tuned.
But in the meantime, we hope you enjoy the first half of the conversation Claudia, and I had with Shannon and Cory Nowell.
Hi, and thank you all again for joining us for another episode of Military Family Life. We've got two great guests with us right now. I'm going to give them the opportunity to introduce themselves. Let's start with Shannon. Shannon, can you introduce yourselves? We talked a little bit in the intro, gave a bit of your bio, but in your own words, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what's your connection to the Military?
Shannon [00:02:06]:
Well, basically I've been involved in the Military community, and been a part of Military life my entire life. My father was Air Force, so growing up I spent some time in Ottawa, and North Bay, and Cold Lake before I left college and moved out to the East Coast - where I went to University of New Brunswick and I met my husband, Cory, who was in the Army. So, it's always a good dynamic in our family with the Army and the Air Force. It's always some good banter. And then from there it kind of got involved after school, in working within the Military community, with the Military Family Resource Centre, and then currently with Soldier On. So, it's just been a part of my life. I can't imagine working outside of the Military community. Now, I had one job since university that was outside the Military community. It felt very foreign, felt like people didn't really understand me, but yeah. So, that's kind of my connection.
Julie:
My husband joined the Army, and both of his fathers are in the Air Force, so I totally understand that that banter that comes up in, on Christmas dinner, etc etc. Cory, welcome and thank you for joining us. Can you introduce yourself, and tell us a little bit about who you are and what's your connection to the Military?
Cory [00:03:16]:
All right. So, Cory Nowell, Veteran of 23 years, just shy of 23 years service, all within the Army. I joined in 1998, and moved out from Prince George, British Columbia, out to the east coast, which was quite the culture shock in itself. And the majority of my career bounced around Gagetown in New Brunswick. I did a couple of years as an instructor in Quebec. We did some time in the UK on my AC-IG course, which is a, a year-long course. So, me and the whole family were there as well. And then came back to Gagetown to retire almost -- it'll be four years this September.
I joined the Military because I just had some family history, and a cousin that was serving at the time. And it just felt like I needed a change and purpose, and you know, it led me to, you know, do a lot of great things. And I met my beautiful wife, and we have two beautiful kids, and, and here we are now.
Julie:
Between the two of you, you've got, like the Canadian posting bingo card going. You're going to...
Cory:
Yeah, yeah.
Julie:
I'm not going to make anybody choose their favorite posting but is there one that stood out more to you? You said that you were in the UK? I think a lot of listeners, and a lot of Military spouses are all sort of hoping to get that coveted OUTCAN post and tell me what UK was like.
Shannon [00:04:37]:
As a Military spouse, yes, you always wonder where the next place is going to be, when it's going to be. We didn't do a lot of postings through Cory's career, just because of the trade. But when we had the opportunity to go to the UK, I said to him, you know, I would follow you anywhere in the world. I guess I have to follow through now! So, it was, it was an experience. We, I was, actually on mat leave with our second child, so that created a different, different dynamic, for sure, Having to, to leave my job at the MFRC, and you know, say goodbye to everything we knew here Gagetown, with our, our small children, 8 months, and two at the time. But we, we enjoyed it. The first little bit, like with most postings, as an adjustment, you know, you take that three to six months to kind of figure out your bases, and get to meet your neighbours.
But it's way different in another country, you know, having to learn the medical system for your children, and you know, how to drive on the other side of the road. So, it's, it was certainly an adjustment, and only being a one year posting, it you know as soon as you were adjusted and you felt comfortable, you felt like you had met people, and you started to enjoy things. You start thinking about coming home. Luckily, we knew we were coming back to Gagetown where it was only of course. So, we didn't, we didn't do a house hunting trip because we had planned the house to be built for us when we got home. So, we kind of were able to avoid that, that part of it. Which was good, but it's, you know, only being one year, it's just a whirlwind trying to take advantage of, you know being in another country, and seeing all the sights, and still to this day, I can't wait to someday go back and see more. It certainly opened my eyes to, so what else is out there? You know, I hadn't really left, you know, North America all that much. And I'm, you know, I was excited to finally be immersed in that culture, and, and see different things. And I hope you know someday to take the kids back when they can really, really grasp it. They don't typically remember much. You know, my son, at the time, was like, do we have to go visit another castle? I'm like, yes, yes, we do, because we…
Claudia [00:06:49]:
Yes, yes you do.
Shannon:
Do that, yeah. So yeah, we certainly, you know, took advantage of it, and, and got to see as much as we could.
Cory:
It was definitely our favorite posting. We still like, we know several people that have been there over the years, well, so we get to talk about that quite often. And even with people who haven't enjoyed that posting, we talk, we bring it up, and talk about how great, how special UK was. It came with a lot of challenges. We had a power outage for like almost a week leading up to it, like the month before. So, we lived in our camper-trailer, in Shannon's parents’ driveway for the last 30 days before leaving. Thank God it was summer.
When we got there, you know, Shannon left a little bit of information out. She did struggle. It was difficult for her, going from being career-driven to now just being a stay-at-home mother, you know, so thankfully there was a really good group of motivated mamas - they were called - and motivated mothers, or something like that, where they would… It was a nice short walk to the school to drop Blake off at daycare, and then they would go off with their strollers, and little babies, and like, work out sessions outside in the fields and whatnot. In the, you know, in the subdivision that we were living in while I was right at it on course. So, there was no messing around. I didn't get much time to, to settle in. It was, we got unpacked and I was on course for the next 12 months, so...
Claudia [00:08:19]:
It's an interesting dynamic, and I just want to touch on that because we hear a lot from the spouses that will kind of say to the Member, you know, well, you kind of left this part out, and you weren't really sharing what it was really like. So, here we have a whole different dynamic, Shannon, where Cory is calling you out, and kind of glazing over some of the, you know, the professional challenges that you had, you know, and what that means actually going, and, and losing a career that you were very good at. And I can honestly say that because it's been a hot minute since I've connected with Shannon, because we actually worked at the MFRC in Gagetown together. So, you know, I can speak to, to all of the work that she did inspiring the youth in the Gagetown area, and it must really be a challenge, and you know, thank you, Cory, for bringing that up because I know it, it's hard to admit sometimes when, when the spouse is the one struggling for sure.
Cory:
Well, and it, it honestly it got to a point where I was like, 'Shannon, I think you need to pack and go back to Canada while I finish my course and I'll meet you at home,’ you know? Because she, it was probably three months, you know? It really played a toll on her, and, and a lot of emotional meltdowns. And it was hard for me because I was, you know, bombarded with assignments, and homework, and a lot of research, and just school stuff. So, it was not easy on both of us, you know, and the kids were young. So yeah, it was, it was, until, until it came around, and she started to build friendships, then it really, then the dynamic improved, and, and we were able to smash on so I can get through it.
Claudia [00:09:59]:
Shannon, were there other systems, or resources in place for you when you were there? Like, once you got over that hump of the three months, or getting settled into your new location, and with the kiddos, and everything. Were there other resources available, or was this something that just with your extended family, and the friends that you created there, was that the deciding factor where you, you know, you found it easier to settle in?
Shannon:
It took time to make those connections. There was only one other Canadian at this location who didn't have children, and you know, so I didn't get a chance to connect with them. So, it really was about connecting with, with the British families. And what we realized is that it doesn't matter what country you're from, when you're a Military family, you’re a Military family. And you go through very similar things. In fact, their postings are even shorter, and they don't have, you know, they don't have as many resources to support them on their postings because they're posting might only be 3 or 4 hours down the road. So, it's not, as you know, intense as moving across the country.
I did connect with the, you know, the MFRC over there, you know, and I volunteered with them remotely, you know, but in a year, you don't get to get too involved, unfortunately. But they did have a couple of opportunities for, for anyone that was, was kind of living in the UK to connect. We did go to an outing. I think it was near Christmas time because I remember we did like letters to home, and, and we took the kids, and we connected with other Canadian families that were around the UK. So, that was interesting to hear their stories from wherever they were living, and their experiences. But I think the short posting, that one year thing is, was what made it so difficult because you know, by the time it was time to go, I didn't want to go then. You know? I wanted to stay. We did not want to leave.
It's a different thing, and being the Canadian, right? You know? When I first would go to the grocery store, I didn't want to talk to the cashier because instantly I was the one with the accent and I was the one that people turned their heads to, like, where is she from? So, I didn't, I didn't like it. Right? And then I'm generally pretty, I'm generally pretty chatty and social, but I was like, I'm not talking to people because I'm like, they're like, what are you saying? Or, you know, different words? Like, obviously, we're all speaking English, but everyone has different words. But by the end it was, like, I was so proud to be Canadian. I was excited to talk about Canada. You know, we'd sit around at the pub, and we'd compare like the geographical size of Canada compared to the UK, because they'd be like, “Oh, we're coming to Canada. We'll come visit you.” I'm like, no, you won't like... You're going to Alberta, like…
Cory [00:12:43]:
I remember going to a mess hall with the guys and there was a map of the world. On there, and I was like, 'OK, guys, remember when you talked about coming to visit me when you're out in Alberta for training? Here's where I live, and you're a four- or five-hour flight away from me.'
Claudia:
You know, for those that don't know, my husband is British. And so, I know in the first few years even, engaging in conversation with his family, and his grandparents, I would, you know, they would start talking and I would have to look at him, and it that, that look is automatic, 'Can you please translate that for me?’ Because they talk so fast. Their words are different, and kind of like in Canada, depending on where they're from in England, they have different accents, and different tones. So, yeah, completely understand where that's coming from.
Do you guys think that this posting has helped you strengthen your family's resilience? Or that it really enabled you, or helped you navigate other transitions in the military life?
Shannon [00:13:50]:
Yeah, I would say definitely. You know we had nothing but each other anymore, right? You know, we had to lean on each other, or him to call me out when I wasn’t, you know, doing so good, and say 'Like, either, either go home, or sort it out and enjoy it.' And that was really the moment when it all switched for me and, it was like, “I'm here. I have an opportunity to enjoy this, and embrace it, and learn, and see different things, and expose our children to different opportunities.' So, it was literally like a switch. I was like, 'OK, nothing I can do about what happened back home about having to leave my job.’ You know, this is, that's all in the past now. I can't change that. So, take on this next journey, and just do it, and enjoy it. It felt like a little bit of a like, a fog, pretty much the whole year we were there because the emotional side of it.
Cory:
That was our first big move, and my other posting out of New Brunswick, like I bounced around in New Brunswick, obviously. Had three different units, I went to Quebec, but I went IR, so I went by myself, and we didn't have kids. So, Shannon had her job, at her home. She had, you know, was able to just smash on Monday to Friday, and every couple months, we would visit each other. And I like, my first week in Quebec, right to work, you know, working on courses. So, we were busy, which helped that time go by, and we were just in our own little bubbles. So, UK was a different beast for us, having children being across the country, very foreign to both of us, you know, places we've never been before so...
Claudia [00:15:32]:
Shannon, do you take a moment, like you said, that when you, when it was time to leave, you didn't want to go. So did you take a moment and just, you know, acknowledge and appreciate the strength that you had to get through to that side? You know, like, I think when you're going through it, you don't stop and think of how resilient, or how strong you are as a Military spouse. I think, we kind of just glaze over that every now and then, but you did you take the time to think about how far you've come and what you've learned getting through to the other side?
Shannon:
Probably not at the time. Certainly now, when we look back on, you know, we have these types of conversations, or you meet someone who's not in in the military community, and you know, you talk about going to the UK, or doing IR. You know? I even had family members who, when we went IR, were like, “Oh, that's the end of their marriage.” It was like, why would you think that? But it was like, that's, they don't get it right? They, they don't understand. And so, I think now, you know, at this point, you know, we've been together for 20 years. And so it's like, yeah, we've done a lot and it just being a part of the Military, it's just everyone's doing it though, right? So, you just are like, yeah, that's just another day. It's just another year, another posting. You just do it because that's your life. You don't realize that it's not normal, because it's your normal.
Cory:
The friendships that we created over there, I literally just wished one of the guys from the UK a happy birthday, and his response was, “Awesome. Hope you're well. I have to, we have to plan a visit.” And my response was, ‘I've been there twice now, it's your turn to come to Canada, so…’
Claudia [00:17:18]:
And make sure you don't come to New Brunswick in the winter, because they'll never come back.
Cory:
Right, right.
Julie:
It's so odd when you, sort of talk about the fact that looking at your marriage, in hindsight, and all the things that you've been through. My husband just got out last summer after 37 years, and we sort of had that natural time, and we're talking about all of the postings, and all of the things, and the things that he missed, and the things that we were able to do because of the Military. And when you sit back and look at it from that perspective, you know, when you're going through life, you're just, you're just doing it because this is, you know, this is the next hurdle in front of you, and you know, this is what we have to do to get by.
And you know, I never thought of in any other way because this is, this is what my life was like. I'd never been married before. This is what marriage was to me. But, when you sit back and look at it, all of a sudden, I was like, ‘OK, now I see where all my friends were thinking that this was such an odd arrangement.’ Like when you look at it all together from an outsider's perspective, I think, ‘Oh, yeah, that's why they thought this was going to be hard for us.’ And it was hard. No question. But, when you start to look at thing after thing, you do have that moment that Claudia talks about, like, you know, good for us, that we got through all of that and, and, you know, at the other end. This is what we were able to. build.
Cory [00:18:21]:
It's funny because during your career, you kind of go through these phases, these waves of, like ‘Oh, this is different.’ You know the stuff you despise, and that drives you, and makes you irritable. But and I've explained this to a lot of people have said, ‘You know, what's it like? Retiring?’ I said, ‘You know, when you well…’ I was a senior NCO, so, you retired that you're getting in the twilight years of your career. You're that old, crusty senior NCO, and then when I retired, the day I retired, I was a proud Veteran, immediately. So, the things that we talk about is the, that all the good things that happen to the career, like the regimental balls, and getting dressed up and going to parties, and you know, and just the, the stuff like that. Like the family days that they got to take the kids to so they can climb all over the equipment, and play with the guns, and that. You know? And the stuff that Daddy worked on for a living. So, you know? And then obviously friendships, you know, the ones that have come and gone, you know? So, there's so many things that we could look back and say, “Man, I was, I have no regrets about what the Military has provided for me and my family.”
Claudia:
Cory, this interview for me is, is, you know, it's really exciting, because my role now with Military Family Services is really all about transitions. And you know, there's a transition joining the Military. There's a transition that happens while you're in the Military for various things, right? Like your family dynamic, your postings, being away from your immediate family. But, I think, the biggest transition of all is what you talk about, is the pride of being a Veteran, and, and acknowledging everything that you've accomplished. And it's hard to do that. But can you, you know, we'll talk a little bit about your medical release, but I'm just wondering if you can share with us a bit about your Military background? What was your experience like, and what was your experience like being medically released, just from your perspective? And then we'll kind of connect with Shannon, and, and see what it looked like from her eyes.
Cory [00:20:27]:
OK, so I started off as an Air Defender, 1998, joined, again posted the 4th Regiment here in Gagetown. And this is before Afghanistan. So, life at the regiment, regiment life was in its own bubble. You know, we didn't train with all the other units around the base or across the country. Like, that, they were doing during the campaign for Afghanistan. So, we just did regimental, we did battery level exercises, regimental level exercises, troop level exercises. You know, just really self-contained stuff. So, there was no learning about what everyone else around the, the base, or for the forces for that matter, was doing.
So, I was an Air Defender, worked on several different pieces of equipment. For the first half of my career, and then we took on a couple new roles over the years. We had an aerospace coordination centre, and we also took on drones. And drones was the path that I got pushed into. I was literally in the Arctic, sleeping in an igloo. When we finally get back to camp, and Shannon's like, “I just got a call from one of the guys, you're going to Afghanistan?” Like “No, I’m not. I'm in the Arctic. What makes you think I'm going to Afghanistan?” Sure enough, as soon as I got back, there was a directive that had come down from the Prime Minister's office, is that we, we purchased this equipment, and we will deploy by September 1, and it was like February. So, got home, hustled down to Clovis, NM for nine-week training, back home, 30 days. It was just, get your affairs in order and you know, just moved into the house a few weeks before I left. And then I was gone. So anyway.
And then the latter half of my career was spent with the drones. And then I also did a couple years as an instructor. Which then I, I was now becoming a senior NCO, so I'll come back. I'm no longer an operator or anything like that. It's more of an administrator running my own troop, and stuff like that, which banning, after being an instructor, and then becoming a administrator, supervisor, I loved that job, you know? And I learned a lot about myself, how I was instructed, and what type of instructor I wanted to be an instructor. I became, and then the, the supervisor that I became afterwards. And not tooting my own horn, but I think I had quite a bit of respect for my subordinates, peers, and supervisors for the soldier that I was. I always tried to emulate what a soldier should be, how they should act, how they should conduct themselves, how they should treat their subordinates, peers. So, I get to the point where I recognize, ‘OK, it's time to retire,’ and I think a lot of them, ‘Oh, yeah. You're not retiring. You're not retiring,’ because I was really boisterous about it, a lot. I was like, ‘I'm done. I'm done,’ you know, getting to that crusty senior NCO, OK.
And I got to a point where I was just probably the biggest and scariest point of any soldier’s career, is recognizing that their time is over, and sliding that memo across the desk to my Sergeant Major saying my time was over. And it was immediately, this weight lifted off my shoulders, and I really felt good at that point about the decision that I was making. And I told him, I was like, ‘Unfortunately, I wanted to make it to where you are. I wanted to retire a Sergeant major.’ I made to Warrant Officer, which is very respectable, yeah. But I told him, I said, ‘I don't want to do the job that you're doing nowadays.’ The Military’s just not, it's ever-evolving, and changing so quickly, and it was just getting really hard to keep up.
So, the RSM tried just, wanted to visit with me, make sure I was making the right decision, and I had a small business going, and lined up that was going to be my transition, and he was OK. He understood that. So, he agreed that, you know, ‘Hey. OK. Sad to see you go, all the best,’ kind of thing. Transition, nowadays, well, four years ago, three or four years ago was, was not scary like it probably was five years prior to that for the people, and previous because so many people there was not a lot of things in place to help people transition. There was not. There was the fear of having to wait six months for your first pension check to roll in, you know and all that jazz. So, I had a case manager. A release case manager to help me every single step of the way. I had an individual transition to help me with every single step of the way, and then every time I felt lost, or that I was missing something, it was a quick phone call, ‘Where am I at? What am I doing?’ And it was like, OK, we, we're here, here, here, right now, we're waiting. Perfect. That's all I need to know.
And then finally retiring, and because I'm medically released, I actually started with a voluntary release, which then Ottawa then has to conduct an interview with you anyway and they said, ‘No, no, we're going medically release you,’ and they saw medically released, so that now takes over with the VAC case manager. And it's just like step-by-step. OK, we're going to evaluate what needs you require, and I go through everything, OK, we're going to set you up with chiro, physio, massage, and whatever else I was, you know, a pool therapy, whatever I needed to get me healthy for, you know, body and mind. And the VAC check, and the medical benefits, and my pension like started at three weeks after retirement. So, there was another peace of mind of like, OK, we're not going to drown financially because I've decided to retire, and it was massively scary. That was probably the biggest thing, financially, are we going to be OK? It was very, and that's why I was so pushing hard. I have to get my small business established, and my RSM was very helpful with allowing me to do that before I released.
Claudia [00:26:17]:
Cory, a quick question. When you, you said that you were, when you slid that, you know, the memo across the desk, and you were looking at a voluntary release, right? And then when everything shifted for you, and it became a medical release. Did you feel any of the, I don't want to say stigma, but you know there there's concern sometimes with the Member, when it is a medical release. Did you have any feeling towards that, or was there any concern or worry?
Cory:
I don't want to say worry. I felt like I was losing the driver's seat. I felt like I wasn't now in control, and it was up to everybody else to say, OK, this is what you have to do now, where with the VR, I was like, this is what I'm doing. And then the medical release happened, and it was like, OK, now you need to do this, this, this, and this. And it's like so. I lost being in the driver's seat.
It's funny because people think, ‘oh, I'm going to get out medically’. You don't decide how you're releasing. You know, Ottawa decides how you’re releasing. So, you know, so it was like my medical. So my VR was submitted. It was two months of an administrative review being done on my medical docs to decide how they were going to release me. So, a lot of people think that “Oh, no, no, I'm getting out medically.” No, I've known people who thought they were getting a medically, and didn’t happen. So, you don't make that gamble.
Claudia [00:27:48]:
Shannon, when Cory was going through this process, and assuming that you guys had the conversation about what a release would look like, where, where were you at? Did you feel there was a sense of loss or more change coming down the pipes? What were you feeling about everything
Shannon [00:28:05]:
A few years leading up to it, it was like super stressful because, you know, we talked about the financial piece of it because it's like, what does this mean, you know? Yes, you have your 20-year pension, but that's not going to sustain us in, you know, yes, we're double income family, but I work for a not-for-profit. It and so, you know what that means? We've all been there.
So, you know, when he went through the Princess Entrepreneurship program, he stood up the small business, you know, painting, you know, we looked at all the numbers and I was like, OK, you know what? If this is what it's going to be, and, and you know you have a plan and you're going to paint, and, and we can do this. All right. We're doing it. So, you know we submitted the VR. But then you know when it came back, and it was medical, or we weren't sure that was kind of that. It almost wanted to be that little bit of a light bulb moment for, for me to kind of express to him like, you're being medically released for a reason. So, I had just taken on the new job, with Soldier On, which is part of the transition unit. So, I started seeing people going through transition and seeing all the steps and processes. So, I had a little bit of a, you know a window into that. I said, you know, maybe you need to take some time. You know, now that you're being medically released, there's financial support. You don't have to jump into the painting business because he was already painting, and he was painting. And he was painting….
Cory:
I fought hard.
Shannon:
10 hours. It was like 6 months of conversation.
Cory [00:29:29]:
But I was like, this is my therapy. You know, this is, this is my after-military life therapy. So, I pushed back hard on Shannon's, you know, request for me to just stop.
Shannon [00:29:42]:
Yeah, it's, and, and I get it. And I understand that because everyone needs a purpose when they, when they get, you know, when you get out, it's when you have a purpose, you feel like, you know, like you said, he's back in the driver seat, and he has this like, “I'm going to, you know, I'm running my own business.” This, but I was just like you know, but you're working more, and you're working harder because you, you're now running this business. So, after about six months of this constant conversation, you know, I convinced him to just take some time, and you know, if it means taking care of yourself, go to those appointments, and get the help that the medical release process provides. You think we'll, it'll be better off and then if you want to paint, you're down the road, or whatever. That's good.
So, eventually he did. By that and that was, I think better for us as a family. It allowed him to be home with the kids. You know, he got to be there when they got off the bus. It allowed some flexibility with me taking on a new job to really embrace that role. So, it, it did turn out to be a better decision. And then he ended up choosing not to go back to that small business, because he realized, physically, it's not the easiest thing to transition into, and so, you know, he finds other ways to stay busy. He's always got some kind of project around the house, on the go or around the camper, and stuff. So, he still has that purpose, which I think is the biggest piece for people upon releases is: what's my reason for getting up every day? Because, as we all know, weekends come around if you don't get a reason to get out of bed, it's easy not to, so. Yeah.
Cory [00:31:14]:
Need to keep moving. Just need to keep…
Julie:
It's one of those things that the Army tells you what to do for so much of your life, right? Like, you know, from the time I met my husband, they told us where we were living, and they told us, you know what the job was. And they gave us... It was very much directed. What our life was going to look like. And then all of a sudden, release was looking in the eye. And it was like, you know, where do we want to live? And what do you mean? We're going to decide, like, it just seemed like so much.
My whole life I was fighting for this control and sort of resenting the fact that the Army was controlling my life, and then all of a sudden, I had control, and it was a little bit scary for that financial reason that you're so, you were talking about like, you know, where is the money going to come from? And all these other pieces, what is our life going to look like, a touch and go relationship with control. Like, OK all of a sudden, you know, we're heading down this path. OK. I guess we're heading here, but what's it going to look like when we get to the other side? It can be pretty scary.
Shannon [00:32:01]:
For sure, Claudia mentioned about like, if there was any sense of loss in terms of like as a Military spouse. And you know, because we're still so embedded in Military community, we still live in this area. You know, I'm still working within the community. There wasn't as big a sense of loss. But I do find there are times when it kind of hit home. We're like, hey, we don't have a Christmas party to go to this year. Don't get to get dressed up or you know, when we came back from the UK, a lot of our friends had either released or been posted out, so it was it was really different. You know, we'd go to the Christmas parties, and I felt like I didn't even know the spouses. So, there was that, you know, that sense of loss and that sense of, like, you know, we're not as connected in that way. But most of our friends are still, you know, connected to the Military family, whether they're still serving or released. So, we still have those connections with people within the community, I think if we had moved, or if I wasn't still working here, you know it would be a very different feeling, and like how do I go work for people that don't understand what the last 20 years of my life has been like? And why I went through a pregnancy by myself, or why we lived in the UK, or why my husband went to Afghanistan, like, you know? So, it's nice that we have had the opportunity throughout his career to, to be embraced in that, you know, when he was in Afghanistan, I worked at the MFRC. So, I had that constant support. I kind of knew what was going on. People. I had people around me that understood my life and that was huge. That was really big during the IR posting. I did the whole pregnancy on my own, and thanks to my coworkers, you know I had somebody to support me. You know? And while my coworkers even came in the first doctor’s appointment because I was so scared, I wasn't going hear the heartbeat for the first time, and I took my coworker. You know, and that's just what you do in a Military community. You create those support systems. And, and without that, you know. It's, it's not easy, so I'm I've been grateful to have different supports through to his career to, to get through all those fun times.
Claudia:
You know, Cory talked about how support for the releasing members has changed, right? So, even though, three or four years ago, we know that these “Strong, Secure, Engaged” Defence policy has really increased the supports for the, the CAF members releasing, and I'm curious, Shannon, if you recognize any additional support from the family perspective, do you feel that? And I understood like, I, I'm very familiar with Gagetown and the supports that are there but, being embedded in a community where, you know, you're, you're close to the MFRC, you're connected with the transition centre for your job. Do you feel that you have adequate support for the family, or are there things that you're missing that, you know, you would think would be beneficial that families would like to have for additional supports?
Shannon [00:34:57]:
Yes.
Cory:
So talk about...It just the other day, and let me, just one second, Shannon. We talked about this the other day. There's lots of support for the Member.
Julie:
Yeah.
Cory:
Not too much for the family or the spouse.
Shannon:
And that's, and that's kind of where I was getting at. Even though, and I'm somebody who is well informed in this community, and I still didn't see it, I think that there's a lot of ideas out there and there's things that are being piloted, maybe?
Cory:
You know. Also it was also COVID right?
Shannon [00:35:34]:
That's true.
Cory:
This was at the height of COVID as well, like it was September of 2020. So, that could have played a factor into it.
Shannon [00:35:42]:
Yeah, and, and most definitely. I think, I, I see, I see within my job all the supports that’s there for the Members, and I, I can hear from spouses like well, “How come I can't go with my spouse to, to that event or, or whatever.” And it is like, you know, people, the spouses don't talk about that sense of loss, but like that was, that was your lifestyle for so long. And now all of a sudden, you know, here in Gagetown, the MFRC still is available to those, you know, who are Veteran families. And most of the programming for the adults, and special events, and stuff. You can still access, and if you're not, you're still serving Military family, so if you're still in this community, then yes, you can access that. But you really, as a spouse you have to seek it out, and not everyone knows how to do that.
You know there is OSISS. So, Operational Stress and Injury Social Support, that has a family peer support coordinator. So, spouses, or adult children can access peer support through them, but unless the member tells their family about that program, or they seek it out through the MFRC, or just within their community, knocking on doors they don't know about it, it, it all is reliant on the member telling the family about those supports. We're hearing it from another, hearing it from another spouse. Or what does that look like? You know, a lot of the spouses are working. So, those programs that are available during the day to the Members who are no longer working, aren't available necessarily in the evenings, to spouses that are working. So, we stayed within our community, so, I think there's certainly more access to support both for the family and for the, for the Veteran. But if you leave a Military community, it is very difficult to stay connected and get those supports.
In, in well, New Brunswick, it’s rural kind of, if you leave this area, you're pretty much somewhere rural. So, but yeah, so it's, I, and I just think there's just not enough awareness about what is available, and I don't think there is enough available. What is available a lot of times comes from organizations that aren't even connected with the Military. They come from third party organizations, other not-for-profits, other Veteran-led organizations that recognize there is a need for support for spouses. I don't think it's necessarily coming from within the Military community, you know, like there is a little bit, like we said at the MFRC, or OSISS, that kind of thing, but I think there could be more for sure, for spouses.
Julie [00:38:14]:
Because the Military spouse community is, is quite strong, right? Like they, they have their groups, and that, and you share information. Like, even in Petawawa there's groups, you share information. But once you're no longer that Military spouse, you sort of really take a step back. And there doesn't seem to be the same kind of network as there was.
Claudia:
Yeah. What do you think? Like what would be the one thing that you miss the most that you would like to see put in place?
Shannon [00:38:38]:
I don't know. I think just really understanding what the transition is going to look like. You know, we didn't move after his release. So, that was a big piece. So, let, less stress taken off it. The medical support understanding that, like as a spouse, I still don't understand the whole VAC system, how he accesses stuff or even what's available to me through VAC.
You know, I did find out from another spouse that, you know, our family can seek mental health support because he has PTSD, and VAC will, VAC will support that. I didn't know that. Luckily, I found out through a network, but that's again something that that's huge. That's huge for your family. And we, we talk about it as the family, and within, within our kids, like our kids go see a counselor and it's, it's part of the routine for them going to see, you know, someone and to talk is like going to the dentist, like going to the doctor. Like, we keep it part of our normal life so that they can say, 'Hey, yeah, you know what things are rough right now. I, I would like to go talk to them or go have an appointment,' and we're like, 'Hey, cool. We'll set it up.' But I mean, that's one support that we took advantage of because we found out about it, but I'm sure there's more that we don't even know about it. So, I think just understanding for sure.
Claudia:
I think part of it, too, is, you know, and I appreciate that the, the honesty that, that you guys are sharing with us because, the more that people understand what you don't know, or MFRCs, or, or other community organizations, especially, Gagetown, Petawawa. You know, it's a heavy Army base and you're not necessarily close to a major city. And so you're, the families are reliant on the local resources. So, the more that they know and potentially hear what some of the struggles are, I think the better opportunity is to increase some of those support services. So, thank you for, for sharing that.
You touched a little bit on the, on your children. Then do you think, or in what ways do you think, that your children's perspective on the Military life has been impacted? Talk about them, you know, going into the, the counseling piece, but just everything that they've done, I know they were young when you went to the UK, but in what ways do you think that they've been impacted?
Cory [00:41:05]:
So, our son Blake, he's 12 now, and he's an old soul, right? He would just blurt out immediately how proud he was that Daddy served in the Military, and that served his country and protected those that have, don't serve or those that you know live in Canada. And so, Blake has always been very fulfilled in the fact that his dad was a soldier. Bryce is not as boisterous as Blake is about it, but you know she's there, there's been glimpses of her saying how proud she was of me, and, and how happy she was that I was in the in the Army, in the Military, so yeah.
I'm grateful that we had the kids after I went to Afghanistan. To not have to go through that, I wish they were a little older when we were in the UK so they could have enjoyed that experience like we did. And again, Blake was born while I was in Quebec, but, I was four months away from the end of my, my rotation there, so I was back four months later after he was born. So there was no impact on him, then, but, getting up into the later years of my career, and going through the things that I was going through mentally, it took a bit of a toll on the kids, and there were some ultimatums that Shannon gave me at times. And there was part, there was glimpses of where I, I wasn't feeling like a very proud, and a good father and husband. So, there was some tough times there, you know, because of the stresses that being in the Military, and especially that, you know the rank that I was at was putting on me and then me taking that home. And taking it out on the kids and Shannon.
So, there was not some, there was some dark times for me looking at myself. That I had a very difficult time with, and Shannon had mentioned that I was diagnosed, and I was diagnosed while I was still serving, which a lot of times doesn't happen. Because they'll usually at the time the companies that were doing it was only dealing with Veterans. So, through a favor to a friend of mine who was retired, the company that he was with, out of her own time on a weekend, and not, and not charged me a dime, I spent four or five hours with her to complete a full assessment, and, and she was like, 'Wow.' And, I was like, 'What was that mean?' She's like yours? Pretty much so. But then I did nothing about it. I'm still going to work every day, so it was like time went on and I was like, OK, whatever, you know, I just kind of like, did that, done whatever. And then she's like, OK, so like a year went by and she's like, 'OK, so yeah, you got this diagnosis, but now what are you doing?' Started to get help and because I started to get help it was it made me look at things that I was doing so that I could make it easier for the kids, and make it easier for Shannon. And I've learned through therapy on, you know, things that I say and do, or did was not OK, and that they didn't deserve it, so I tell them that. I, I'm very open book with the... It's, you know, and when dad's a jerk, I don't just slough it off and forget about it. I'll sit them down afterwards. And I'm like ‘you didn't deserve that, Daddy's very sorry.’ You don't deserve to be talked to, or be treated like that. I think I've grown up a lot. Probably like the last year of my career, and, and into where I am now with retirement.
Claudia:
I love the dynamic between the both of you, the, the give and take, and calling each other out when, when there's obstacles and barriers. I think that is so unique and so important that you communicate that, and that you share that because it's obviously worked for you in various scenarios, and I just love it. I think it's phenomenal, and the growth that that you have both, you know, evolved into is, is just phenomenal. And Shannon, your turn. What, what has that journey been like for you from the perspective of, you know, the spouse, the partner, the one you know, kind of being the, the gatekeeper with the, with the kids?
Cory [00:45:35]:
Just before she... It's funny how you say how great our communication is, because Shannon will tell you she sometimes often thinks our communication is not that good.
Claudia:
But she tells you, and that's what's important.
Shannon:
Yeah, the, the mental health piece is really tough. Anybody who's, who's gone through it or dealing with it, it's, it's not easy because you know, some spouses might say like when, when they came back from Afghanistan, they were just a different person, and they saw that difference from like night and day. That wasn't the case for us. It was kind of a gradual thing as. As life became more stressful with kids, and career, the mental health piece has started to come out. That's where you know, the anger started to show a little bit, or you know this. That's when we started going, OK, something's got to give. Like, we're this, things aren't going good anymore. Like we, you know you're, you know, you're snapping at the, the slightest things that you shouldn't be, or like you're not dealing with situations the way you know are good for us as a family.
So navigating the mental health piece is a long journey. It's, it's never ending like it's, he said like, you know, got diagnosed but never did anything about it. And then. It was like, OK, you know. So, like you got to acknowledge, there's a reason you know something. Something has to be done. And so that's when kind of that journey started. And for him it kind of came out when he went to the Invictus Games, you know, he didn't tell anyone he was diagnosed with PTSD, not even his own parents. And then going to the games, and being around others who, who were a little further on in their journey, and who had recognized that they needed to get help, you know, they told their stories. And then Cory was like, you know what? OK, you know, I'm not the only one, and they got help, and, and they're on a better path right now. So, you know now maybe it's my turn.
So, you know, that was kind of the first thing, and, and him going and, and getting help, and it, it made a huge difference for us as a family for him seeing that, and then recognizing that you know he couldn't do the job no more. And that once he finally was done it, you know it was a little calmer sometimes. You know, we have our days like, like everyone else, but it's, it's been a lot and you just kind of, you just do it like I, I don't know how else to explain it. You just kind of do it and you try to keep the call there were certainly days that it was, yeah, I was that gatekeeper, or it was that barrier so that, you know, I could keep the effect on the kids as low as possible and, and, 'Hey, you know, go take a walk.' Or 'When's your next appointment?' You know those kinds of things like been a rough week. What's going on kind of thing. So yeah, it's certainly not easy, but it's part of our life now. And we have open conversation about mental health. And we, that's just who we are now.
Claudia:
Like I said, you guys have wonderful communication, and I think that's sometimes the hardest piece, right? The member sometimes not wanting to admit that they're, that they're struggling or the spouse thinking like, is this just me? Am I making, like, am I making it all up in my head, or where do I go, what can I do? What would be some advice that you would give to another spouse or partner that may be struggling or where you know if the Member is potentially considering a medical release or getting out and they don't know where to go? What would be some good advice that you would want to share?
Shannon [00:49:21]:
Learn as much as possible. As the spouse, you know you can seek out OSISS without your spouse being diagnosed, and you can talk to a peer support coordinator if you feel that your spouse has some anxiety or mental health stuff. You don't have to wait for that diagnosis. You don't have to wait for somebody to refer you to them. You can go and talk to someone. The transition unit has service coordinators who, who the Members can go see if they're considering release, to have those conversations about what that looks like, whether it's medical or not. There's the, the transition briefs now you know, as the Soldier On rep, I get to go and brief at those, and there's so many people that brief at those briefings that talk about what a release looks like, and their spouses that attend with their, with their partners, or a lot of them, are available virtually as well now. So, they can, you know, the spouses can turn in, tune in virtually.
And it's overwhelming, for sure, to the member and to the spouse, because they're there's so much information. But, I kind of always, just when I do tell people, or I do talk to people, but it's like, you know what, you, you're maybe not taking all that information in when you're having those conversations with people, or attending those briefs, but at least you heard about the organization or, you know, that there's something that you can access in regards to that situation. And then you might have to, like, filter back all that information, or research that again. But you know there's something there, you just got to access it again in that way.
Julie:
My husband referred to it as drinking from a fire hose, like was just three days of drinking from a fire hose. It's just so much coming at you.
Shannon [00:51:02]:
I think too, as the spouse, like, especially if your partner has some mental health… So, there's a lot of memory stuff there, too. So, it's where there's two of you. There's two people to access the information, so you can, you can know if they're not remembering what's available, you can kind of, you know, poke that, or, or see like if, you know, that person, that organization can help you, and, and your kids, or, and the partner. So, it's just, I don't know, the, the more you know, the better you are moving forward or, you know, where to access the information, too. So, I think just for, for serving Members, that are releasing, you know, include your partners in these conversations, it's not just your journey. It's, it's the whole family's journey, and the more your spouse can know, the more they can either help you, or, navigate it for, for you as a family, as well. I think that's where they're, they're… We, we know so little about their careers as spouses. You know, the military is a whole other world that we don't typically understand. But this now, the transition is something you need to be a part of so that you can go through as a family, especially if there's a move involved, or any of that kind of thing. It's, it's important to kind of take it on as a team, for sure.
Julie:
And there's a whole new world of acronyms for you to learn.
Shannon:
That's true.
Claudia [00:52:20]:
Cory, just, I'm going to ask you the same question. You know, as a Military member, you talked about a lot of supports at the Transition Centre. And, there are services, and supports available. Once you've made the decision, whether it's a voluntary release or, a medical release, you know, there's services there, but what if you're not sure yet? What if you're thinking about that? What if you are struggling, and, and you're on a temporary category, and there's mental health issues. I know that there's OSISS, Shannon has referenced that. I'm not sure if you guys have the Sentinel program in Gagetown. I know it's pretty prevalent on a lot of bases, like what would be some advice that you would give to a CAF Member if they're struggling, and, and not sure of what decision or what way they want to go?
Cory:
Great question, obviously. And again a lot of friends, peers, colleagues that reach out to me about that very question, and I'm like, and the number one, I thing say all the time is you have to be able to get out of your own way. You have to be able to suck up the pride, realize that one, that when your end to the career is coming, that beast that you've been working for, for the last X amount of years is going to keep steam rolling on without you. You know, so you have to realize that it's time to take over for myself, you know, and be able to do the things for myself. So, I tell them all the time. You got to be able to get out of your own way, and what I mean by that is don't be afraid to go down to the local Veteran's Support Centre, or whatever it is, and talk to those that are either have already gone through it, and, or maybe you're going to tee up with other people that are going through it at the same time you are, and learning some lessons.
And the advice I always give after that is, is that your release is not going to be the same as everybody else's. And I'll say like you need to realize that there's don't be afraid to call VAC and ask the questions on, what do I do in this circumstance, or what do I do for this? Don't be afraid to go to the local support centre and talk to Veterans that have gone through, or experienced something similar to give you an idea of what I should do, or who I should... That for things that are out of my control or things that I haven't thought of yet because going through a release.
How many times in your career do you go through a release? Well, most people, some vaguely more than once, but for me, it was once. And you don't know what you don't know. So, by picking the heads of the people that have gone before you to say, 'OK, what was your experience like and what were your lessons learned? And how could, what should I do? Or what direction can you point me in?' But I always start that out with you. Got to get out of your own way and accept the fact that you're going to need help. You're going to have tons of questions. And you got to lean on those that experienced it before you to figure out what is the best course of action for you to take for the path that you're on.
Claudia [00:55:33]:
I think that's awesome. Phenomenal advice from both of you. Julie, do you think this would be a, a great spot to kind of pause and end this episode?
Julie [00:55:44]:
I think it's an excellent point to stop. I always like to stop on advice, so perfect we can sort of put a hold here and we're going to come back with another episode with Shannon and Cory to talk about the next phase of their journey and also talk about the Invictus game. So, for those of us who love the Invictus Games and, and really loves sort of what's behind it, the stories that come from that, Shannon and Cory are going to share their experiences, so stay tuned. Come back next month. We would love to have you join us again. Bye.
Claudia [Outro]:
And that's it for this episode of Military Family Life. From one military family member to another. If you have any advice that you would like to share, let us know! We would love to hear from you. We may even share your experiences on future episodes. If you have family and friends who want to learn more about living their best military family life, don't hesitate to let them know about our podcast. Thanks for listening. Join us again next time for more Military Family Life.